5.56 very poor round for stopping power

They tried to "improve" on the original by going to a heavier bullet and speeding up the twist. At 2500 fps a 62 gr from a 1/7 barrel is spinning about 250,000 rpm (no, I didn't break out the calculator. Correction in 5...4...3...2...) Joe.

The "improvement" had much to do with a change in priorities.

M193 was effective within it's 200 meter (it) effective range, but it was not very effective if there were ay intervening barriers, such as glass, walls, etc. In fact, your .45 ACP and 9mm pistol rounds are more likely to pass though an interior walls and an exterior wall in the average house than M193. M193 will start to tumble and fragment as it passes through the first interior drywall and will a lot less likely to penetrate the exterior wall due to the fragmentation. In contrast a 9mm or 45 ACP hollow point will just plug with dry wall and exit the house like a 9mm or 45 ACP FMJ.

M855 was developed using the NATO SS109 projectile with a steel penetrator that was designed to effectively defeat intermediate barriers such as glass, mild steel plate, etc. Specifically, the SS019 round was designed for the FN FNC rifle and the FN Minimi machine guns, and was designed to penetrate 3.5 mm of steel at 600 meters.

That became relevant when the US adopted the M249, an adaptation of the FM Minimi, and the same requirement was imposed on the M16A2 a couple years prior to that.

1-7" rifling was adopted however to accommodate the significantly longer M856 tracer round. The geniuses in charge decided that troops needed to be able to fire the M856 out of the M16A2 and get the same effective range and penetration range. So, while a 1-9 twist was ideal for the 62 gr SS109/M855 projectile, 1-7 was adopted to accommodate a tracer round that seldom gets fired in an M16 or M4, and if it is, it's done over a far shorter effective range.

The effectiveness of M855 on personnel was NOT a primary consideration in the adoption of M855. It is true that M855 will tumble and fragment at the distances described in the table in my prior post, but that's not cut on stone as it's also where the "fleet yaw" issue described below comes into play.


/...One known issue that affects ball rounds is "fleet yaw". Bullets that strike perfectly perpendicular are slow to upset and fragment and may exit before this can take place. Bullets that strike at a significant angle of attack upset and fragment early. This results in inconsistent terminal effects depending on the rifle, ammunition, range, and shot placement.../

The short story is that shorter barrel length and the heavier M855 bullet both limit independently and together the ranges at which you'll get reliable energy dump in the target through tumbling and fragmentation.

But, if you're talking about a self defense shoot at less than 50m, it's pretty much a non issue. And if you're trying to call it a "self defense" shoot at ranges over 50m you better have a really good story and a really good attorney.
 
Folks have seen too many Dirty Harry and Bruce Willis movies.............

one round from a .44 mag will throw you back against the diner wall......

one lone guy with a 9mm Beretta........ shoot and kills 8 or 10 ex-special forces bad guys all shooting at him with full auto rifles..they drop like rocks in a pond..... in the end all he has to do is blow the smoke from his muzzle.....Yippee ki yay mother..................

With a .223 it's not......................

one shot ...stop ....... evaluate target...... still up and moving......shoot again .........evaluate......... nope still moving.........shoot again..............................

it's more like...... bang-bang-bang... bang bang

yep took me 5 shots to drop that ___________; need to get me a bigger gun!
 
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This is where a large volume of data from military combat zone incidents is needed to make a decision as to what to put in the hands of each of our valued troops. We have this data, we just choose to look at the isolated experience of individuals.
 
Stopping Power ( or whatever terminology regarding the probability of shootee falling down in a timely manner ) with fmj from rifles will involve tumbling of the bullet, ideally tumbling AND fragmenting . Put another way the goal is for the bullet to be unstable in flesh . For the bullet to reach the flesh, it must be stable enough in air to be reasonably accurate.

Generally the factors are length of bullet and rate of twist . To oversimplify the goal would be a bullet just barely stable enough to reach the target. This can be aproached from either direction. Such as in the early '60s with 55gr in 1 :14 , and recently with 77gr in 1: 7 .

I've done a little with 62gr in 1:12 , and intent eventually to work with 69gr in 1: 9 .
 
.../

With a .223 it's not......................

one shot ...stop ....... evaluate target...... still up and moving......shoot again .........evaluate......... nope still moving.........shoot again..............................

it's more like...... bang-bang-bang... bang bang

yep took me 5 shots to drop that ___________; need to get me a bigger gun!

Exactly.

The same is true with a self defense handgun.

Over time, the number of shots fired by police offers, on average, in an officer involved shoot have increased significantly. That's partly due to more officers shooting a high capacity semi auto as opposed to a revolver, but it's also largely due to a change from the older "shoot to wound" philosophy to a "shoot until the suspect stops posing a threat" philosophy.

Officers are less often shooting 1 or 2 rounds and then evaluating the need for follow up shots, they are more frequently shooting until the suspect is clearly down.
 
Ya, I would like to go into battle with a Ma Deuce but, that is not a very practical weapon to carry. I think another thing that may or may not have talked about here but, the bigger the round the less ammo you carry.

I have always been a location, location, location kinda person. It matters more where you hit someone than what you hit them with. Next come good ammo. HP ammo is the key. You get a 5.56 hp ammo traveling around 3k fps and I don't think too many people will be dancing a jig after that.
 
This has additional information with images and graphs about fleet yaw. (Page 4 of the PDF.)
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519801.pdf

I did forget to mention before that all of the same stuff we love about 9 vs. .40 vs. .45 apply here as well. Recoil, cost, training, magazine capacity, size, weight, total rounds that can be carried, logistics, etc.

The author mentions that .223 is marketed for varmint hunting. For illustrative purposes, if an average groundhog is 8.5 lbs and the average human target needing to be shot is 170 lbs then a 55 grain bullet scaled up by the same factor is 1100 grains. That's well beyond a .50 BMG.

Generally the factors are length of bullet and rate of twist . To oversimplify the goal would be a bullet just barely stable enough to reach the target. This can be aproached from either direction. Such as in the early '60s with 55gr in 1 :14 , and recently with 77gr in 1: 7 .
I've read a couple of remarks from DocGKR that very fast twist rates can cause JHP and JSP bullets to open quicker and larger.
 
A lot of dead VC and NVA would disagree with the article. The M16 did just fine in Vietnam. Yeah there were jamming issues related to cleaning and ammo but the design was more about weight in 100+ degree triple canopy jungle. Carrying a couple hundred rounds of 7.62 was not really doable considering all the field gear and a belt or two of M60 you lugged.

The article mentions Lt. Col. Hal Moore who was the commander at the battle of Ia Drang. I'm skeptical of his comments. He was an excellent officer and a classmate of my father's at West Point class of 1945.
 
I prefer 7.62 x 39 but I wouldn't consider 5.56 to be poor. If I remember correctly, 5.56 is what the Seals used when they took down bin Laden. They probably could have used anything they wanted.
 
In '67, guys started removing the tips off the 5.56 ammo, as they thought it would act like a hollow point, because they were having to, sometimes, shoot the bad guys, more than once.

All it did, was push part of the lead out of the tip and then accuracy was terrible and if they cut off too much of the tip, it would shoot the lead core through the bullet and the shell of the bullet would hang up in the bore and now the rifle is out of action. This practice was stopped pretty quick by the upper authority.

My first month in country I was the armourer. Among other weapons, there was a Thompson Submachine Gun with 9 - 30 rounds mags. I turned in my M16 and signed out this weapon to myself, after trying it out. When I went to my unit, the first day there, a Major came up to me and told me I had an unauthorized weapon and to turn it in and get a M16 like everyone else. 2 days later, I saw this Major, with my Thompson hanging off his shoulder.
 
In the hands of mass killers and terrorists, the AR-15 (often, the specific ammo used is not specified) has easily racked up a tragic number of kills.

We sometimes forget that the military need is different than ours where we tend to want instant incapacitation while a wounded enemy soldier often takes three men off line as the wounded soldier must be evacuated.

If warranted, I wouldn't hesitate to use an AR-15 for self defense. I live in the suburbs, not a remote rural area. My AR remains in the safe until there's a total breakdown of law and order and thugs are running wild in the streets. For routine home/self defense, I rely on a .45 ACP an a 9mm.
 
Although I have no use for a AR type rifle, I thought it was better
than a AK. I was one of those who already didn't like it before I
was in the Army. I was amazed at the accuracy at 400 meters on
Pop ups, we didn't shoot bullseye with them.
I always wondered why we weren't issued a 5.56 belt fed MG
instead of M60/7.62. I'm not aware of any major problems with
m16/5.56 not stopping the bad guy.
A m14 is not heavy enough for FA fire. I would say gun would have to be 12lbs minimum for full auto fire in 7.62nato. M60 or
BAR are close to 20, loaded.
The one thing that sticks in my mine was shooting on ranges at
White Sands. When shooting 400 meter pop up in the windy
conditions in Nov. & Dec the 5.56 had a lot of wind drift. With
the m14/7.62 you could hold the edge of target into the wind and
you would get a hit.
Now they have the short M4s in that type of envirement in Iraq
and Afganistan. That gun must be worthless for any kind of
shooting other than the door to door in the villages.
None of us that hunt seem to have one rifle or cartridge for all
our different game or conditions. Keep in mind the m16 was
supposed to replace 1911, M3, M14, and BAR. If the Military is
going to be a one cartridge outfit, they need to come up with
a 30cal similar to AK 7.62x39. Then they can have a light rifle
capable of FA Fire. The ideal rifle cartridge combination is a myth.
There is to many varibles of terrain, range required, and the type
of targets to be penetrated.
 
In '67, guys started removing the tips off the 5.56 ammo, as they thought it would act like a hollow point, because they were having to, sometimes, shoot the bad guys, more than once.

All it did, was push part of the lead out of the tip and then accuracy was terrible and if they cut off too much of the tip, it would shoot the lead core through the bullet and the shell of the bullet would hang up in the bore and now the rifle is out of action. This practice was stopped pretty quick by the upper authority.

My first month in country I was the armourer. Among other weapons, there was a Thompson Submachine Gun with 9 - 30 rounds mags. I turned in my M16 and signed out this weapon to myself, after trying it out. When I went to my unit, the first day there, a Major came up to me and told me I had an unauthorized weapon and to turn it in and get a M16 like everyone else. 2 days later, I saw this Major, with my Thompson hanging off his shoulder.

Interesting...I don't doubt that last story for a second. Well known story (probably happened more than once) from Korea where a lieutenant tried to force an enlisted soldier not in his chain of command to "trade" his Thompson for the officer's M1 Carbine...the enlisted man refused, stating "You cannot deprive me of my weapon, sir," or something to that effect. Rank does have its privileges but don't take your shooters' weapons...
 

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