Excellent advice and that's what I would do in the OP's case. I just acquired a well kept 4516-1 and all I did after the initial cleanup and lube was to replace the recoil spring, mag springs and followers. It's been a delight. I ordered the service pack from Wolff that includes about every spring this pistol will ever need...ditto for the 4506, come to think of it.
6906 Issue......RESOLVED!!!
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Excellent advice and that's what I would do in the OP's case. I just acquired a well kept 4516-1 and all I did after the initial cleanup and lube was to replace the recoil spring, mag springs and followers. It's been a delight. I ordered the service pack from Wolff that includes about every spring this pistol will ever need...ditto for the 4506, come to think of it.
Fastbolt
Member
If you don't mind my offering a couple of thoughts, I've used an assortment of the Wolff springs for the 3rd gen guns over the years. They make a fine product. Good folks, too.
The slightly reduced power hammer(main) springs can lighten (and seemingly 'smooth out') the DA trigger, but bear in mind they're lighter than factory springs, and heavy primers are out there.
I'm no longer interested in trying to use their reduced power drawbar springs (trigger return spring) for dedicated carry 3rd gen's. Not since I tried one for a while and started experiencing a "Skips DA" condition due to the weak spring force. (Granted, their website is quite clear in stating that these springs are for competition guns only, and aren't intended for duty guns.)
They're a source for the older single recoil springs for the older 4516/4516-1's, but they also recommend calling them before ordering to discuss it.
I've used their mag springs for 1911's & double stack 3rd gen's with great success and satisfaction, but I prefer the "factory" (still a vendor
) 3rd gen .45 & 9mm single stack mag springs ... and factory recoil springs. (Except for the SW1911's, in which I use the Wolff mag +10% springs for the ACT-MAG's, and recoil springs. I thought I remembered hearing one time that Wolff was supplying S&W with the recoil springs for the SW1911's ... but I could be wrong, or things might have changed.) Anyway, I like the longer "factory" .45 3rd gen spring with its more coil windings.I've sometimes used their extra power firing pin spring, especially when running a lot of +P+ loads in an occasional 9mm (if I start to see some noticeable pin wipe). No complaints.
I only use factory extractor springs for 3rd gen repairs. They have a wide range of extractor springs that allow a gunsmith, tech or armorer to fine-tune any particular gun, which can be handy, especially when dealing with older guns made using older equipment and production methods. The "weight" of the spring is different than than the amount of tension (in pounds) exhibited when checking an extractor & spring using the force dial gauge, anyway.
I think the hammer spring is standard. I didn't want any reduced power springs of any sort. I'm debating changing out the hammer spring but there's no problem with the one that's in te pistol I thought of changing it just because I don't know how old the pistol is...1999, 2000? SN is TED3XXX. Nor do I know if any spring has ever been changed so the recoil spring was the first to go and then the mag spring. I ordered two extra mags but also have Wolff replacement springs for them as well. One came with the service pack.
There's a lot of little tiny springs that I have no idea what they're for but if I ever decide to delve into a complete take down, I'll match old with new just to be sure what fits where.
This is what comes with the service pack on a given pistol, I got the Type II...
Service Paks
TYPE I - For Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistols contains the following springs to replace weakened or broken springs, returning the pistol to original factory condition: recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, hammer spring, extractor spring, 2 ejector springs, magazine catch spring, drawbar plunger spring, safety lever plunger spring, slide lock plunger spring, safety lever detent spring and rear sight body plunger spring.
TYPE II - contains all springs described in Type I pak above and a +5% extra power magazine spring.
There's a lot of little tiny springs that I have no idea what they're for but if I ever decide to delve into a complete take down, I'll match old with new just to be sure what fits where.
This is what comes with the service pack on a given pistol, I got the Type II...
Service Paks
TYPE I - For Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistols contains the following springs to replace weakened or broken springs, returning the pistol to original factory condition: recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, hammer spring, extractor spring, 2 ejector springs, magazine catch spring, drawbar plunger spring, safety lever plunger spring, slide lock plunger spring, safety lever detent spring and rear sight body plunger spring.
TYPE II - contains all springs described in Type I pak above and a +5% extra power magazine spring.
"Light lube" = a small drop of remoil on each slide rail, hammer pivot and trigger group...........reassemble, rack by hand a few times, wipe of any excess under rails or around trigger group, reload and holster.
Fastbolt
Member
Excessive and insufficient lubrication can both cause problems.
Excessive amounts can allow it to run under gravity and migrate to areas where it shouldn't go. Places where it might become stuck and attract an accumulation of fouling, dirt & debris, which might in turn develop into a thick and nasty sludge, interfering with normal function (firing pin channel, around the frame parts & assemblies, inside the extractor recess, etc).
I've seen nasty accumulations gather around the sear, drawbar and other parts inside a frame and create functioning problems in guns. Another instructor brought me a relatively new (3-4 years old) 4566TSW in which the hammer wasn't consistently staying cocked during firing for the issued user. I disassembled the frame and found a surprising accumulation of slightly wet, sticky/tacky sludge that had gathered around the sear, preventing it from moving easily. This had apparently caused it to stick and not move fast enough to consistently catch the hammer's SA notches. (Nothing appeared to be wrong with the parts themselves.) Once clean (and NOT lubricated), the sear moved easily & normally, and the gun once again fired and operated normally. This was a user caused "problem" which had involved less-than-ideal cleaning & lubricating practices, which had allowed an excessive amount of solvent and/or lubrication to migrate around inside the frame.
Insufficient lube can also lead to problems, such as accelerated & excessive wear on the frame rails in the alloy frame guns. Slowed cycling, especially under the increasing heat of repeated firing.
When armorers do detailed inspections they can wipe down the various frame components, parts & assemblies with a lightly moistened patch, but this isn't the same thing as "oiling" the parts. Just wiping them down and then reassembling the gun. Aside from the bottom sides of the hammer, the rest of the frame parts & assemblies aren't normally "lubricated" when the guns are field-stripped for normal cleaning.
The use of one of the good quality synthetic greases made for use on firearms is also fine, as long it's applied according to the manufacturer's directions. Some of them are thicker and don't easily spread, and have to be put where you want them to be (fingers, Q-tips, other applicators, etc), and some are thinner and will spread a bit better. Read the directions.
I like some of the greases for conditions where the gun may be exposed to constant temperature changes and humidity (like near bodies of water), and they'll probably remain on the gun longer than some of the oils (which can have their carrier base evaporate, run off and thin under gravity or be wicked away by holster linings). Just depends.
I usually have 2-3 good synthetic greases and at least that many different synthetic oils that I use. Some make for easier cleaning after shooting, and some not so much.
Now, S&W 3rd gen armorers are given a pretty basic recommendation for lubrication. (For 'normal' conditions, although some different operating environments might necessitate something different.)
One (1) drop of oil on the barrel (especially at the muzzle)
One drop on the barrel hood (front of the hood, where it meets the front of the ejection port)
A drop each on the left & right rails of the slide (or frame). (I usually put 1-2 drops on the tops & sides of the front of the frame rails, where the slide rails will spread and carry it as I install the slide.)
On drop on each side of the hammer (at the bottom, where it rubs within the frame, but not so much that it will run off under gravity and migrate away from the hammer).
It's not a bad idea to rub some oil on the guide rod, too, and the oil remaining on your fingertips after rubbing it around the barrel/muzzle is probably enough to lubricate the guide rod.
The .45 frame rails aren't broken up into the same sort of shorter rail areas as on the of 9/.40 frames, so I usually use a bit more oil (or grease) on the .45's due to the added frame rail surface area.
I like to be able to see the frame rails exhibit some light degree of visible wetness (top & "upper" sides of the front & rear of the rails, and along the "lower" outside part of the rails). The places that can start to exhibit wear marks from cycling. If someone is having sluggish cycling or feeding stoppages on the firing line, and I fields-trip the pistol, I usually see dry rails. A couple drops of oil usually restores then gun to normal function in those sort of instances. (Another gun maker recommends their owners/users clean & lubricate the guns when new (before firing), after each time they're fired, or monthly (fired or not), whichever is applicable ... which ought to make sure the guns don't run dry, huh? )
Now, the presence of lubrication can also act to help mitigate the vibration & shock which occurs during firing, helping to spare the metal from the vibration. (This was discovered by another company who makes allow-framed service pistols. I was forwarded a warning issued by one large agency using that company's weapons, and came across a wall poster in another agency using those weapons, on which someone had written in marker ink "lubricate your guns or die". Subtle, huh?
Just some rambling thoughts about lube. I'm not an expert. I don't shill or specifically push different oils & greases. The market has a bunch of good ones made for use on firearms. Pick whatever suits your fancy, and/or any specific conditions anticipated. Read the directions, though. (Hey, some folks still use old-fashioned Gun Oil from cleaning kits, or even 3-in-One Multi-Purpose Oil. )
Excessive amounts can allow it to run under gravity and migrate to areas where it shouldn't go. Places where it might become stuck and attract an accumulation of fouling, dirt & debris, which might in turn develop into a thick and nasty sludge, interfering with normal function (firing pin channel, around the frame parts & assemblies, inside the extractor recess, etc).
I've seen nasty accumulations gather around the sear, drawbar and other parts inside a frame and create functioning problems in guns. Another instructor brought me a relatively new (3-4 years old) 4566TSW in which the hammer wasn't consistently staying cocked during firing for the issued user. I disassembled the frame and found a surprising accumulation of slightly wet, sticky/tacky sludge that had gathered around the sear, preventing it from moving easily. This had apparently caused it to stick and not move fast enough to consistently catch the hammer's SA notches. (Nothing appeared to be wrong with the parts themselves.) Once clean (and NOT lubricated), the sear moved easily & normally, and the gun once again fired and operated normally. This was a user caused "problem" which had involved less-than-ideal cleaning & lubricating practices, which had allowed an excessive amount of solvent and/or lubrication to migrate around inside the frame.
Insufficient lube can also lead to problems, such as accelerated & excessive wear on the frame rails in the alloy frame guns. Slowed cycling, especially under the increasing heat of repeated firing.
When armorers do detailed inspections they can wipe down the various frame components, parts & assemblies with a lightly moistened patch, but this isn't the same thing as "oiling" the parts. Just wiping them down and then reassembling the gun. Aside from the bottom sides of the hammer, the rest of the frame parts & assemblies aren't normally "lubricated" when the guns are field-stripped for normal cleaning.
The use of one of the good quality synthetic greases made for use on firearms is also fine, as long it's applied according to the manufacturer's directions. Some of them are thicker and don't easily spread, and have to be put where you want them to be (fingers, Q-tips, other applicators, etc), and some are thinner and will spread a bit better. Read the directions.
I like some of the greases for conditions where the gun may be exposed to constant temperature changes and humidity (like near bodies of water), and they'll probably remain on the gun longer than some of the oils (which can have their carrier base evaporate, run off and thin under gravity or be wicked away by holster linings). Just depends.
I usually have 2-3 good synthetic greases and at least that many different synthetic oils that I use. Some make for easier cleaning after shooting, and some not so much.
Now, S&W 3rd gen armorers are given a pretty basic recommendation for lubrication. (For 'normal' conditions, although some different operating environments might necessitate something different.)
One (1) drop of oil on the barrel (especially at the muzzle)
One drop on the barrel hood (front of the hood, where it meets the front of the ejection port)
A drop each on the left & right rails of the slide (or frame). (I usually put 1-2 drops on the tops & sides of the front of the frame rails, where the slide rails will spread and carry it as I install the slide.)
On drop on each side of the hammer (at the bottom, where it rubs within the frame, but not so much that it will run off under gravity and migrate away from the hammer).
It's not a bad idea to rub some oil on the guide rod, too, and the oil remaining on your fingertips after rubbing it around the barrel/muzzle is probably enough to lubricate the guide rod.
The .45 frame rails aren't broken up into the same sort of shorter rail areas as on the of 9/.40 frames, so I usually use a bit more oil (or grease) on the .45's due to the added frame rail surface area.
I like to be able to see the frame rails exhibit some light degree of visible wetness (top & "upper" sides of the front & rear of the rails, and along the "lower" outside part of the rails). The places that can start to exhibit wear marks from cycling. If someone is having sluggish cycling or feeding stoppages on the firing line, and I fields-trip the pistol, I usually see dry rails. A couple drops of oil usually restores then gun to normal function in those sort of instances. (Another gun maker recommends their owners/users clean & lubricate the guns when new (before firing), after each time they're fired, or monthly (fired or not), whichever is applicable ... which ought to make sure the guns don't run dry, huh?
)Now, the presence of lubrication can also act to help mitigate the vibration & shock which occurs during firing, helping to spare the metal from the vibration. (This was discovered by another company who makes allow-framed service pistols. I was forwarded a warning issued by one large agency using that company's weapons, and came across a wall poster in another agency using those weapons, on which someone had written in marker ink "lubricate your guns or die". Subtle, huh?
Just some rambling thoughts about lube. I'm not an expert. I don't shill or specifically push different oils & greases. The market has a bunch of good ones made for use on firearms. Pick whatever suits your fancy, and/or any specific conditions anticipated. Read the directions, though. (Hey, some folks still use old-fashioned Gun Oil from cleaning kits, or even 3-in-One Multi-Purpose Oil.
)
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If the slide doesn't lock back after the last shot are you are unable to find any mechanical reason for it, perhaps you are shooting "high thumbs" and are riding the slide stop. I suggest this because I have done it with my 669.
I'm probably guilty of putting too much on one...too many 1911's from the past I guess. I like to put some Gun Butter grease on the locking lugs and use FP-10 everywhere I see a rub mark-especially the rails, a drop on the disconnector, barrel and hood and around the barrel bushing. I stopped using Break Free CLP as it just goes away in no time...sort of like evaporates.
Koz,
it isnt my shooting style......I carry a 669 every day and shoot it about once every 2 weeks with no issues.....I also carry a G19 outside the US and have had no issues with it or the CZ 75 and variants.....its definitely a mechanical issue....just waiting on the return slip from S&W so I'll let the experts figure it out...
it isnt my shooting style......I carry a 669 every day and shoot it about once every 2 weeks with no issues.....I also carry a G19 outside the US and have had no issues with it or the CZ 75 and variants.....its definitely a mechanical issue....just waiting on the return slip from S&W so I'll let the experts figure it out...
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