A Brit-made six-gun that I love, the Enfield No. 2 MK I*

Just got a bad monkey off my back, called yearly qualification. Bad karma for myself and glad its in the rearview mirror of my life, now good karma is a British Enfield No. 2, like my friend Les just got. Wow, that is a real treasure for the Enfield No. 2 collector! After my first Enfield purchase, I really became interested in this firearm and would collect and save any Enfield articles I came across in gun publications/magazines. Built up a considerable amount of info on a favorite British subject of mine. Then, of course, I delved into the .380 British Webley MK IV and have managed two 5-inchers, the "War Model" versions. I wish that I had went ahead and gave that gentleman at a local gun show the 300-dollars he wanted for a nice .455 MK IV Webley back in the early 90's. My interest (then) resided with the .380 Models and I missed a great deal on a "legendary" British sidearm.

I mentioned in a previous post, meeting and becoming friends with an elderly WW2 vet who brought home an Enfield after the war. He is responsible for my Enfield love that continues to return to me time and again. Thanks to Les, Texas, and others here they got my Enfield-fever burning red hot again! This in turn returns me to a favorite time in my life as a small town Chief of Police and being introduced to the Brit revolver of WW2 fame by this same vet. He allowed me to shoot it on those lazy Sunday afternoons in a secluded area of the Chattahoochee River, on the bank-side. We swapped revolvers as he shot my duty arm, a Colt Official Police and I, his Enfield. Not long after my first Sunday afternoon shooting session with that wonderful man, I would purchase my first No. 2 MK I* Enfield. Got some factory ammo, Remington .38 S&W I believe, and became good friends with this Brit-made arm. Real good friends!

During my service as Chief, I would sometimes substitute my Colt OP for my British Enfield and actually carried it on duty a few times. I know some would balk, but in the low crime/no crime area of this small town I was just fine. I really became enamored with it and got a kick out of packing it (on-duty) from time to time. I had became acquainted with the idiosyncracies of the Enfield and was confident with it under that backdrop. I would later add four more of these revolvers for a small collection and continue on with my Enfield-Webley study. My thanks to you and I hope my duty carry doesn't upset too many because I really loved doing it. Frequent traveling companion to Panama City Beach, under my seat, in a zipper gun rug. It was good insurance for travel or that "bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night" that spells trouble.

David
 
David:

Glad you have that qualification behind you. I still keep up at least yearly qualification with my old department in order to keep my LEOSA active. I also have a West Virgina concealed carry permit, which is now accepted in something like 39 states. I also have a Florida Concealed carry permit. At one time, WV did not have reciprocity with either Georgia or Alabama, and there is no way to drive to Florida without going through one of those states. So I got a Florida permit, which was and still is good in GA and AL. I have a good friend, former Police Chief, and then college professor like myself who lives in Florida since he retired, and I go down to visit with him now and then, and always drive . Don't know if I'll renew it when it expires in 2018, since WV's is now good in, I believe all of the states that honor FL's. Well, we'll see. Why have both LEOSA and a Concealed Carry permit? Partly like a belt and suspenders thing. I'm always worried that I'll be somewhere where they don't know about LEOSA, but honor the state permit, or vice versa. Also, a backup in case I miss the yearly qualification necessary for retired guys to carry. heck, here in West Virginia, they just passed a law that you don't even need a permit to carry concealed. We have never had a law against open carry here, and have never had a problem with that, so I don't really anticipate any problems when this new law becomes effective June 5th of this year. I think everyone who wanted to carry a gun was already doing so anyway.

I always enjoy your stories, and am now enjoying tinkering with my "new" Enfield No 2. I have already found the issue with the front sight that I mentioned in my above post. It seems, based on my single specimen, that there were different blades that you could interchange to adjust for windage, and probably for elevation as well. Mine is marked "L", and clearly sits in the groove that is in the barrel rib off to the left. It is specifically machined to do so. I will try to photograph it and add to this post so you can see what I'm trying to describe. It would be neat to find a source for other blades, made to sit in the center of the rib, and on the right. This is probably something that others know about, but it is all new to me, even though most of these were made before I was born.

Here is the front sight viewed from the muzzle, see how it sets to the shooters left:



Here is a view looking down on the barrel from the shooters right, behind the sight. See how the blade is positioned to the left? Yet the channel in which it sets is dead center on the rib.



And here is another view, you can see the "L" stamp on the blade. I would deduce that there must be I stamped ordinary blades, and ones stamped "R", which would set to the shooters right.



Well, that's enough minutiae for tonight!!! Probably put some readers to sleep!!!

Best regards, Les
 
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Texas Star,
My apologies for my post somehow convincing someone that your words were mine. That was never my intention. How you could be so certain that I had never seen the book amazes me..you are correct..how did you know?

I haven't read any of the Fleming novels since the mid 1960's or so. As I recall the stories & their details were not precisely followed from book to film. To put myself in the frying pan again..I seem to recall JB using a Colt Police Positive Special in the book "The Spy Who Loved me"

Best.
 
Les, you got my curiosity going and I went and retrieved my bedside Enfield for a quick check of the front sight. My battered, but unbowed Enfield, has a tiny marking on the front sight blade. Too small for me to see, even with my bi-focals. The blade seats dead center on the post however one of my Webley MK IV's has this off-center front sight like your Enfield. However in shooting, under 10-feet, it is accurate enough to be fatal. Les, you got a great firearm in your Enfield! Your enclosed target picture shows me that yours too, is accurate enough to be fatal! Thanks for your pictures and post Mr. Les!

David
 
Yesterday, "the book" was delivered from Abe's. Thought it would take two weeks, but three days is better.
Much nicer than the library copy. Published by Crown in 1970. I like my books, and The Handgun is a fine addition to the library.
Enjoying the thread too, so you guys just chatter away.
 
The Enfield Revolver, whether it be the .476 Model or the .380 Model, has always been a symbol of "good" and was readily identified as an arm of the British Military. This also includes the legendary Webley Models. For myself, I see these firearms as symbols of British prestige, might, and power. I visualize the British Officer standing tall, standing proud, facing down over whelming adversity armed with Webley/Enfield Revolver, most likely ingrained from watching the movies "ZULU" and "ZULU DAWN" too many times. But make no mistake, these Brit guns captured my imagination as a young man, thrilled me to death when I finally acquired one, and made me a prisoner to collecting these wonderful arms. It is also rewarding to find like-minded people here that also appreciate these arms. The search for new data on these never ceases with the collector/shooter. When the Stamps/Skennerton book(.380 Enfield no. 2 Revolver) came out in the 1990's, it created a big "stir" to Enfield collectors. The Webley book, mentioned in previous posts, is just too expensive for my pocketbook. I would love to find one, reasonably priced. Anyway, thanks to all who have posted here. It is always interesting to hear what other Webley/Enfield friends have to say. Thank you again my friends!

David
 
David, just a footnote on the front sight issue I mentioned in my post #92 above, I found a reference in the Stamps-Skennerton book on p 61, to there being three different front sight blades. Standard, left off-set, .02", and right off-set, .02". So my initial deduction seems accurate. Remember, even though one of my first handguns was a Webley back in 1960s, this is my first Enfield, and all this is new to me.

M1A: I just got my "The Handgun" a few days ago also from "Abe's". It's quite a handful. I have a feeling that some of my summer vacation reading is just ahead. But I just recently finished all three volumes of the biography of Sir Bernard Montgomery (Monty), so I'm up for a little "heavy" reading. For those of you who haven't seen this book, and I had never heard of it until our friend Texas Star mentioned it, it is HEAVY. You literally get your money's worth, by the pound. By the way, Abebooks have copies of this book at very reasonable prices.

Best Regards, Les
 
I'm not sure if I can post a link to see a whole movie here, so go to YouTube anD LOOK FOR A FILM FROM ABOUT 1960 CALleD, "fLAME oVER India". I JUst SAW IT THERE, AND YOU GET THE ENTRE FILM.

iT' S ONE OF THE BEST FOR SEEING Webley REVOLVERS AND Enfield RIFLES.

kEEP IN MIND THAT IT'S SET IN 1905. I GUESS THE RIFLES ARE MEANT TO BE smle nO. 1 mk i'S, ALThOUgH I BET Indian TROOPS THEN HAD MORE LONG LE'S. bUT LOOK AT THE RIFLES CARRIED BY THE EXTAS. SOME SOLDIers have No. 4 rifles! I think these men were real Indian soldiers, and carried what they had.

Sorry for the messy post . I'm up all night and going to bed. No time to re-type when the BLEEPING Caps Lock comes on. I look down to type and by the time I see the result, it takes forever to re-type. Sometimes, my patience fails.

Look carefully at the Captain's Webley (s) One is def. a MK VI, but I think I saw a different one in a scene or two. Look also for the old Maxim gun on the train. I think the barrel jacket is brass.

The officer couldn't have had a MK VI in 1905, as it wasn't made until ten years later. But Webley was then making an Army Model that looked a lot like a MK VI except for the front sight being like on a MK IV. The Wilkinson-Webley Model of 1905 had just come out, and it looked a lot like a MK VI. Could he have just bought a brand new one? Maybe. I'm sure the film people did the best they could.

You guys who bought the Boothroyd book can find Webleys of that day therein.

If you watch, "Flame Over India", let me know if you like it. It has a good cast, inc, Kenneth More and Lauren Bacall and Herbert Lom. I liked it so well that I bought the DVD. It was in theaters when I was a teen and I first saw it then.
 
QUOTE=Cyrano;139068170]I just checked the front sight blade of my 1936 dated Enfield. It's marked 'N' on the right side near the front.[/QUOTE]

Colin-

That means it's best sighted to hit enemy charging from the North. :D

Seriously, I bet it means, Normal. Not L or R.
 
M1A said:
Les, I'm a George Smith Patton guy.
Click to expand...

Well, me too. In fact that's what led me too Monty. I have read numerous books about Patton, always had great admiration for his leadership style, but was struck by the way that the movie "Patton" showed GSP always at loggerheads with Monty, so I thought I should learn a little about Monty.

Nigel Hamilton, the author of the three volume biography, had unlimited access to Monty's papers and effects, and had many opportunities to meet with and interview Monty before his death. I have also obtained Monty's autobiography, written by him entirely with pencil and paper and typed by secretaries inter his supervision. After extensive research into the supposed rivalry between these two men, I can only conclude that they, in their very different ways, we're both great men. Each had flaws, of course, but each had great leadership qualities, each was equally flamboyant and egocentric, and each was capable of instilling great loyalty in his men. I also don't think that either fully understood the other, and could never see the value of the others vision. If these two men had been able to cooperate better, they might have shaved a year off of the European conflict.

At any rate, I highly recommend these three volumes to your attention. My picture of Monty before was largely that of the movie Patton. He certainly had his flaws, but was great in his own way.

Best Regards, Les
 
Les I agree with what you've said. I sometimes wonder how we won with so much animosity between the allies and the services involved.

Back on track. I've been looking for a Webley Mark IV in .38 S&W and the prices are crazy. Forget about anything in .455 uncut. I am now going to consult "the book" and find out about "war finish".
I might look at Enfield, but I don't like the bobbed hammer.
 
I found my MK VI that had been shaved while I was talking to a guy at the barbershop!!! He had picked it up in a trade, and was wanting to let it go at a reasonable price. When I got it I had not had a Webley since the MK IV 38 that I had got when I was a teenager for I think $16.00 or so. Anyway, I was a little hesitant because, number one, I wasn't really looking for one, and number two, if I was, I would have liked to have gotten an un modified one. But I had just picked up a really nice colt 1917, and was reloading .45 Auto Rims for it, so I had the wherewithal to feed it a proper diet of lower pressure loads, and I went ahead and bought it. I don't regret getting it, although if an uncut one were to turn up at a decent price, I would jump on it.

Anyway, if you see a decent modified MK VI, and the price is right, and it is in good shape, and has not been abused... No high power rounds through it... I would go for it. A really nice revolver, even if not shooting the original cartridge. Remember the .455 operated at lower pressure than the .45 ACP, so even though you can shoot .45 ACP with moon clips, I wouldn't recommend it unless you load some down in pressure so as not to stress.i think mine was proofed at "6 Tons", or 12,000 pounds per square inch, and the .45 ACP is considerably higher than that, if I remember correctly.
 
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les.b said:
Well, me too. In fact that's what led me too Monty. I have read numerous books about Patton, always had great admiration for his leadership style, but was struck by the way that the movie "Patton" showed GSP always at loggerheads with Monty, so I thought I should learn a little about Monty.

Nigel Hamilton, the author of the three volume biography, had unlimited access to Monty's papers and effects, and had many opportunities to meet with and interview Monty before his death. I have also obtained Monty's autobiography, written by him entirely with pencil and paper and typed by secretaries inter his supervision. After extensive research into the supposed rivalry between these two men, I can only conclude that they, in their very different ways, we're both great men. Each had flaws, of course, but each had great leadership qualities, each was equally flamboyant and egocentric, and each was capable of instilling great loyalty in his men. I also don't think that either fully understood the other, and could never see the value of the others vision. If these two men had been able to cooperate better, they might have shaved a year off of the European conflict.

At any rate, I highly recommend these three volumes to your attention. My picture of Monty before was largely that of the movie Patton. He certainly had his flaws, but was great in his own way.

Best Regards, Les
Click to expand...

Les, I'm going outside to the backyard storage shed, man cave of sorts, and get my "Monty" biography (Nigel Hamilton) back out for refresher course on a great Brit Leader. I'm a firm General Patton guy but, like yourself, found great and interesting qualities in General Montgomery, well worth the study of. Thanks for a great post.

David
 
Texas Star said:
I'm not sure if I can post a link to see a whole movie here, so go to YouTube anD LOOK FOR A FILM FROM ABOUT 1960 CALleD, "fLAME oVER India". I JUst SAW IT THERE, AND YOU GET THE ENTRE FILM.

iT' S ONE OF THE BEST FOR SEEING Webley REVOLVERS AND Enfield RIFLES.

kEEP IN MIND THAT IT'S SET IN 1905. I GUESS THE RIFLES ARE MEANT TO BE smle nO. 1 mk i'S, ALThOUgH I BET Indian TROOPS THEN HAD MORE LONG LE'S. bUT LOOK AT THE RIFLES CARRIED BY THE EXTAS. SOME SOLDIers have No. 4 rifles! I think these men were real Indian soldiers, and carried what they had.

Sorry for the messy post . I'm up all night and going to bed. No time to re-type when the BLEEPING Caps Lock comes on. I look down to type and by the time I see the result, it takes forever to re-type. Sometimes, my patience fails.

Look carefully at the Captain's Webley (s) One is def. a MK VI, but I think I saw a different one in a scene or two. Look also for the old Maxim gun on the train. I think the barrel jacket is brass.

The officer couldn't have had a MK VI in 1905, as it wasn't made until ten years later. But Webley was then making an Army Model that looked a lot like a MK VI except for the front sight being like on a MK IV. The Wilkinson-Webley Model of 1905 had just come out, and it looked a lot like a MK VI. Could he have just bought a brand new one? Maybe. I'm sure the film people did the best they could.

You guys who bought the Boothroyd book can find Webleys of that day therein.

If you watch, "Flame Over India", let me know if you like it. It has a good cast, inc, Kenneth More and Lauren Bacall and Herbert Lom. I liked it so well that I bought the DVD. It was in theaters when I was a teen and I first saw it then.
Click to expand...

Texas Star:

I don't know if we can do this or not, but I'm going to try anyway:

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hbY4jp5N9GA[/ame]

i just started to watch the movie, looks like it's going to be a good one. Now that we're all in a Webley mood!!
 
Les-

Thanks so much for posting that! It's a really good film. The ladies here may like the developing romance between the captain and the little Indian prince's governess, an American lady. (Lauren Bacall).

Watch sharply, and you may see that MK VI transform itself into either a MK I or maybe a Webley-Green in one or two scenes. Look for the added frame length ahead of the trigger guard.

You are wise to load down your shaved MK VI. The .45ACP at normal pressure operates at more than PROOF pressures for .455 revolver. (There was also a .455 Webley auto, and some 1911 Colts were also chambered for that round. Over 10,000 were sold to Britain in WWI, mainly for the RFC/RAF and the Royal Navy . The Royal Flying Corps became the Royal AF in 1918.)

I read Montgomery's autobiography as a teen. He had his good points, and I enjoyed the part where he told of officers being sent to have their swords sharpened in 1914. But Monty seemed unarmed in all WWII pics. Patton was the reverse. I preferred Patton's attitude on that score. I don't like the trend for US generals to look unarmed, even in combat zones.
In Vietnam, Westmoreland wore his famous ivory -handled Randall knife, and I think had a .45 on his other side. Anyone know?

Let me know if you like that movie. Spoiler: There may be a person on that train who is on the Muslim side! See if you can guess who.

You can even make the film into a drinking game. Every time you see a No. 4 Lee-Enfield instead of an earlier rifle, take a drink. But don't plan to drive that night...

Look for the barrel sticking out ahead of the front sight for a quick ID. I was looking for things like that by the time I was 13. I've gotten pretty good at it.

But as British generals went, look at Field Marshal Lord Slim, Viscount Slim of Burma. With relatively modest numbers of troops and supplies, Sir Wm. Slim recaptured Burma from the Japanese. As a general, he was better than Monty. He just didn't get as much press coverage. Orde Wingate was also a skilled leader, especially brilliant in his use of special operations troops. But he died too early in a plane crash. Look for a photo of him with a No. 4 rifle on his sling, about to board a plane. The only other picture I've seen of a general carrying a rifle into battle is of US paratroop general Gavin.
He also wore a .45 and a Randall Model 1 knife.
 
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Les, you da man! Thanks for another "all star" posting with "Flame Over India", just into it and see all kinds of Brit ordnance on display. Texas and yourself really dress this Enfield/Webley posting fine and proper!

David
 
Tex, I had forgotten about Lord Slim. He was a tough nut in a forgotten theater (CBI) of the war. My uncle was a "Hump Pilot" and was not pleased with being left until Germany was almost finished. He did understand the necessity of that strategy though.
Les, I am going to see if Netflix has that movie to stream. Funny, I once thought that meant a fishing spot.
 
Yeah, me too, watching through my Roku box, streaming to the hi-def tv. Bunch of old timers, sitting around watching movies made when we were teenagers, about guns that were made before we were born, on technology that is cutting edge. Here's a screen shot taken on my iPad from 37 min and 47 seconds into the movie. Webley MK VI?



Ain't life grand??? It's raining here at the cabin, and there's a wild tom turkey about 20 feet away, earring the seed that the birds knock out of the feeder.
 
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Gavin

Here's Genrral Gavin's jump suit at the West Point museum. I think it says something abou the man; a completely GI jump suit, just like any other paratrooper, but worn with two stars.
 

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Cyrano said:
Here's Genrral Gavin's jump suit at the West Point museum. I think it says something abou the man; a completely GI jump suit, just like any other paratrooper, but worn with two stars.
Click to expand...

Not standing out and carrying a rifle probably made him a less conspicuous target.
 
les.b said:
Yeah, me too, watching through my Roku box, streaming to the hi-def tv. Bunch of old timers, sitting around watching movies made when we were teenagers, about guns that were made before we were born, on technology that is cutting edge. Here's a screen shot taken on my iPad from 37 min and 47 seconds into the movie. Webley MK VI?



Ain't life grand??? It's raining here at the cabin, and there's a wild tom turkey about 20 feet away, earring the seed that the birds knock out of the feeder.
Click to expand...

Well, if that's not a MK VI, it's a heck of a good actor! It has me fooled.
 
Les, hadn't seen "Flame Over India" in a long while. Great movie with great guns and great actors! Don't get better than this! Thanks my friend for that great posting!

David
 
Well, Texas was the one who remembered it, I just posted it. But I agree, that was a good movie. I had forgotten all about it, but after I started watching it, bits and pieces started to come back, but not enough to spoil it. What a treasure trove of Brit militarization, even if some of it was a little off period.
 
All through the movie, I kept thinking that Van Leyden looked familiar, it just dawned on me: he is Commissioner Dreyfus, inspector Clouseau's boss in the "Pink Panther" movies!!!

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DaHG1x2Bg84[/ame]

I know that I should grow up, but I still think those movies are hilarious. Sorry, I know that this has nothing to do with Enfields. Couldn't help myself.
 
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Texas Star said:
Les-

Thanks so much for posting that! It's a really good film. The ladies here may like the developing romance between the captain and the little Indian prince's governess, an American lady. (Lauren Bacall).

Watch sharply, and you may see that MK VI transform itself into either a MK I or maybe a Webley-Green in one or two scenes. Look for the added frame length ahead of the trigger guard.

You are wise to load down your shaved MK VI. The .45ACP at normal pressure operates at more than PROOF pressures for .455 revolver. (There was also a .455 Webley auto, and some 1911 Colts were also chambered for that round. Over 10,000 were sold to Britain in WWI, mainly for the RFC/RAF and the Royal Navy . The Royal Flying Corps became the Royal AF in 1918.)

I read Montgomery's autobiography as a teen. He had his good points, and I enjoyed the part where he told of officers being sent to have their swords sharpened in 1914. But Monty seemed unarmed in all WWII pics. Patton was the reverse. I preferred Patton's attitude on that score. I don't like the trend for US generals to look unarmed, even in combat zones.
In Vietnam, Westmoreland wore his famous ivory -handled Randall knife, and I think had a .45 on his other side.

But as British generals went, look at Field Marshal Lord Slim, Viscount Slim of Burma. With relatively modest numbers of troops and supplies, Sir Wm. Slim recaptured Burma from the Japanese. As a general, he was better than Monty. He just didn't get as much press coverage. Orde Wingate was also a skilled leader, especially brilliant in his use of special operations troops. But he died too early in a plane crash. Look for a photo of him with a No. 4 rifle on his sling, about to board a plane. The only other picture I've seen of a general carrying a rifle into battle is of US paratroop general Gavin.
He also wore a .45 and a Randall Model 1 knife.
Click to expand...

Found this one of General James Gavin. Not only has a full sized Garand, but is wearing a .45 as well. I will link for some more of those you mentioned, Texas:



I think this is the one you mentioned with Orde Wingate:

 
Last edited:
les.b said:
Found this one of General James Gavin. Not only has a full sized Garand, but is wearing a .45 as well. I will link for some more of those you mentioned, Texas:



I think this is the one you mentioned with Orde Wingate:

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the one of Wingate with a No. 4 rifle. Note the webbing holster on the other officer. Wingate's revolver is on his other side, I guess. They usually wore them crossdraw.

Gavin wore the Randall Model 1 knife opposite his .45. There's a good pic of him sitting at a field conference with Maj. Gen. Ridgeway in Normandy. You can see the knife well, the retaining strap unsnapped. Probably came open by mistake. He wasn't about to need the knife urgently, and wouldn't want to risk loss.

Hmmm...Now that I think, the knife may be worn behind his holster. Many Army Rangers wore their Fairbairn knives that way.
 
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