A Brit-made six-gun that I love, the Enfield No. 2 MK I*
- Thread starter dabney
- Start date
Texas Star
US Veteran
David-
I'm not sure we can post it here, but try to find Churchill's evaluation of Islam, ca. 1898. Wilbur Smith excerpted part of it for the title of one of his novels, The Triumph of the Sun.
Although he was still just a junior cavalry officer then, he had fought Muslims and knew their culture and its effects.
You asked about the 767 markings on guns. I think it's the ctg. case length. 767".
Texas: take a look at the markings on my Webley MK VI above: it is marked .455" .760". I think that is it! Well, I hadn't given much thought to it at all til now, but I'll bet that is the length of the .455 Webley cartridge. Well, David, that clears up one more detail. I'll be in the shop tomorrow, and have some .455 cartridges there, and just to follow up, will measure the casing length. Unfortunately, my revolver has been modified to take the .45 ACP round, or the .45 Auto Rim, but I never shoot full power loads in it, hand loading some Auto Rims to about the power of the old Webley round.
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For a long time I have puzzled over those "767" and the "tons" markings. I had a rough idea about the tons stamping but wasn't sure at all. The 767 was one, despite the data I had, eluded me. Thanks to my friends, these two are cleared up now. While working a part-time yesterday, I was able to record this info into my Webley & Enfield books for future reference.
I really appreciate my friend, Texas, on his Winston Churchill reference in his last post. Texas has opened some doors for me with his suggestions of resources/books to check out and continue my Webley/Enfield and World History education. In a world of political correctness propaganda, he (Texas) shows me the path to take with his suggestions.
The Handgun book is superb Texas! Thanks much!
David
I really appreciate my friend, Texas, on his Winston Churchill reference in his last post. Texas has opened some doors for me with his suggestions of resources/books to check out and continue my Webley/Enfield and World History education. In a world of political correctness propaganda, he (Texas) shows me the path to take with his suggestions.
The Handgun book is superb Texas! Thanks much!
David
Texas, I "googled" Winston Churchill and the subject matter of that post. In the writings of a 25-year old Churchill in 1899, he warns us today in 2016, the "real" threat this is. Thanks again Mr. Texas! As a sidebar, I have seen photos of a young Brit Officer (Churchill ) packing a Broomhandle Mauser as a personal sidearm.
Had the Enfield MK II .476 been completely removed from Army issue during the 1897-99 Sudan years of Churchill's career? I know the Webley had already took center stage then, but was wondering if the Webley Revolver supply had run thin, could the older Enfield MK II been brought back out for general issue to address shortages? Just speculation on my part.
David
Had the Enfield MK II .476 been completely removed from Army issue during the 1897-99 Sudan years of Churchill's career? I know the Webley had already took center stage then, but was wondering if the Webley Revolver supply had run thin, could the older Enfield MK II been brought back out for general issue to address shortages? Just speculation on my part.
David
David, Texas, and all the other posters who have been following this thread:
To day was a great day for me, I finally received my copy of Boothroyd's "The Handgun", I had already received the ".380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver", and "The Webley Service Revolver". Also, today I received my Enfield No. 2 MK I* revolver. I have not had time to read much of the new book, or do much with the revolver, but here is a quick picture of them altogether with a quick backyard target.
The "target" was fired at 30 feet, double action, naturally, since that's all you can do with this particular gun, using some of the commercial PPU Serbian 145 gr LRN .38 S&W ammunition. I have some British service ammo around some where that I will eventually try.
Quick impression: Texas was correct, the gun looks a little rough, but doesn't seem as rough in person as it does in the photos. Finish is mostly patina, but seems as though it has been carried and handled a lot, and shot not so much. The bore is bright, no frosting or corrosion or pitting. Looks like new, ditto for the chambers. It locks up tight, ad the trigger pull is smooth and not nearly as heavy as I imagined from everyone's description. Unfortunately, someone has removed the lanyard swivel. With this ammunition, and at 30 feet, it seems to be grouping about 4 1/2" low, and about an inch to the right. The group is about 2 1/2" by 1"... Not a bad group for ten yards.
Edit... I think I see why the group is an inch to the right... The gun is fitted with a sight blade marked L, and is cut so that it sets to the left of the barrel rib. It causes one to hold just about enough right to cause the group to shoot about an inch right.
I'll certainly share my further experiences with the forum, but just wanted to send out a quick update. So far I am still pretty excited to be playing around with something "new"...(to me at least).
David, I can see how you might have formed an attachment for these cool revolvers.
Texas, you were right about that book, can't imagine how I missed it all these years. So far I've just glanced at it, but it will make a valuable addition to my firearms library.
Best Regards for now...
Les
To day was a great day for me, I finally received my copy of Boothroyd's "The Handgun", I had already received the ".380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver", and "The Webley Service Revolver". Also, today I received my Enfield No. 2 MK I* revolver. I have not had time to read much of the new book, or do much with the revolver, but here is a quick picture of them altogether with a quick backyard target.
The "target" was fired at 30 feet, double action, naturally, since that's all you can do with this particular gun, using some of the commercial PPU Serbian 145 gr LRN .38 S&W ammunition. I have some British service ammo around some where that I will eventually try.
Quick impression: Texas was correct, the gun looks a little rough, but doesn't seem as rough in person as it does in the photos. Finish is mostly patina, but seems as though it has been carried and handled a lot, and shot not so much. The bore is bright, no frosting or corrosion or pitting. Looks like new, ditto for the chambers. It locks up tight, ad the trigger pull is smooth and not nearly as heavy as I imagined from everyone's description. Unfortunately, someone has removed the lanyard swivel. With this ammunition, and at 30 feet, it seems to be grouping about 4 1/2" low, and about an inch to the right. The group is about 2 1/2" by 1"... Not a bad group for ten yards.
Edit... I think I see why the group is an inch to the right... The gun is fitted with a sight blade marked L, and is cut so that it sets to the left of the barrel rib. It causes one to hold just about enough right to cause the group to shoot about an inch right.
I'll certainly share my further experiences with the forum, but just wanted to send out a quick update. So far I am still pretty excited to be playing around with something "new"...(to me at least).
David, I can see how you might have formed an attachment for these cool revolvers.
Texas, you were right about that book, can't imagine how I missed it all these years. So far I've just glanced at it, but it will make a valuable addition to my firearms library.
Best Regards for now...
Les
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Les, what treasures you have on display in photo! Your No. 2 MK I* Enfield looks beau-ti-ful! From the nice photo the grips and outside finish appear as you say, a carried much shot little or none Enfield. A great find for the collector and all around nice guy! Thanks so much for showing us sir!
David
David
OLDSTER
Member
Enfield/Webley
This thread has peaked my interest more than any other on any forum in a long time. Great motivation from Dabney, Les and the rest of ya. I too have ordered some literature, have been enjoying hours researching the web, and am buying Webley and an Enfield
Talk about great therapy for an old revolver guy !
This thread has peaked my interest more than any other on any forum in a long time. Great motivation from Dabney, Les and the rest of ya. I too have ordered some literature, have been enjoying hours researching the web, and am buying Webley and an Enfield
Talk about great therapy for an old revolver guy !
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Just got a bad monkey off my back, called yearly qualification. Bad karma for myself and glad its in the rearview mirror of my life, now good karma is a British Enfield No. 2, like my friend Les just got. Wow, that is a real treasure for the Enfield No. 2 collector! After my first Enfield purchase, I really became interested in this firearm and would collect and save any Enfield articles I came across in gun publications/magazines. Built up a considerable amount of info on a favorite British subject of mine. Then, of course, I delved into the .380 British Webley MK IV and have managed two 5-inchers, the "War Model" versions. I wish that I had went ahead and gave that gentleman at a local gun show the 300-dollars he wanted for a nice .455 MK IV Webley back in the early 90's. My interest (then) resided with the .380 Models and I missed a great deal on a "legendary" British sidearm.
I mentioned in a previous post, meeting and becoming friends with an elderly WW2 vet who brought home an Enfield after the war. He is responsible for my Enfield love that continues to return to me time and again. Thanks to Les, Texas, and others here they got my Enfield-fever burning red hot again! This in turn returns me to a favorite time in my life as a small town Chief of Police and being introduced to the Brit revolver of WW2 fame by this same vet. He allowed me to shoot it on those lazy Sunday afternoons in a secluded area of the Chattahoochee River, on the bank-side. We swapped revolvers as he shot my duty arm, a Colt Official Police and I, his Enfield. Not long after my first Sunday afternoon shooting session with that wonderful man, I would purchase my first No. 2 MK I* Enfield. Got some factory ammo, Remington .38 S&W I believe, and became good friends with this Brit-made arm. Real good friends!
During my service as Chief, I would sometimes substitute my Colt OP for my British Enfield and actually carried it on duty a few times. I know some would balk, but in the low crime/no crime area of this small town I was just fine. I really became enamored with it and got a kick out of packing it (on-duty) from time to time. I had became acquainted with the idiosyncracies of the Enfield and was confident with it under that backdrop. I would later add four more of these revolvers for a small collection and continue on with my Enfield-Webley study. My thanks to you and I hope my duty carry doesn't upset too many because I really loved doing it. Frequent traveling companion to Panama City Beach, under my seat, in a zipper gun rug. It was good insurance for travel or that "bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night" that spells trouble.
David
I mentioned in a previous post, meeting and becoming friends with an elderly WW2 vet who brought home an Enfield after the war. He is responsible for my Enfield love that continues to return to me time and again. Thanks to Les, Texas, and others here they got my Enfield-fever burning red hot again! This in turn returns me to a favorite time in my life as a small town Chief of Police and being introduced to the Brit revolver of WW2 fame by this same vet. He allowed me to shoot it on those lazy Sunday afternoons in a secluded area of the Chattahoochee River, on the bank-side. We swapped revolvers as he shot my duty arm, a Colt Official Police and I, his Enfield. Not long after my first Sunday afternoon shooting session with that wonderful man, I would purchase my first No. 2 MK I* Enfield. Got some factory ammo, Remington .38 S&W I believe, and became good friends with this Brit-made arm. Real good friends!
During my service as Chief, I would sometimes substitute my Colt OP for my British Enfield and actually carried it on duty a few times. I know some would balk, but in the low crime/no crime area of this small town I was just fine. I really became enamored with it and got a kick out of packing it (on-duty) from time to time. I had became acquainted with the idiosyncracies of the Enfield and was confident with it under that backdrop. I would later add four more of these revolvers for a small collection and continue on with my Enfield-Webley study. My thanks to you and I hope my duty carry doesn't upset too many because I really loved doing it. Frequent traveling companion to Panama City Beach, under my seat, in a zipper gun rug. It was good insurance for travel or that "bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night" that spells trouble.
David
David:
Glad you have that qualification behind you. I still keep up at least yearly qualification with my old department in order to keep my LEOSA active. I also have a West Virgina concealed carry permit, which is now accepted in something like 39 states. I also have a Florida Concealed carry permit. At one time, WV did not have reciprocity with either Georgia or Alabama, and there is no way to drive to Florida without going through one of those states. So I got a Florida permit, which was and still is good in GA and AL. I have a good friend, former Police Chief, and then college professor like myself who lives in Florida since he retired, and I go down to visit with him now and then, and always drive . Don't know if I'll renew it when it expires in 2018, since WV's is now good in, I believe all of the states that honor FL's. Well, we'll see. Why have both LEOSA and a Concealed Carry permit? Partly like a belt and suspenders thing. I'm always worried that I'll be somewhere where they don't know about LEOSA, but honor the state permit, or vice versa. Also, a backup in case I miss the yearly qualification necessary for retired guys to carry. heck, here in West Virginia, they just passed a law that you don't even need a permit to carry concealed. We have never had a law against open carry here, and have never had a problem with that, so I don't really anticipate any problems when this new law becomes effective June 5th of this year. I think everyone who wanted to carry a gun was already doing so anyway.
I always enjoy your stories, and am now enjoying tinkering with my "new" Enfield No 2. I have already found the issue with the front sight that I mentioned in my above post. It seems, based on my single specimen, that there were different blades that you could interchange to adjust for windage, and probably for elevation as well. Mine is marked "L", and clearly sits in the groove that is in the barrel rib off to the left. It is specifically machined to do so. I will try to photograph it and add to this post so you can see what I'm trying to describe. It would be neat to find a source for other blades, made to sit in the center of the rib, and on the right. This is probably something that others know about, but it is all new to me, even though most of these were made before I was born.
Here is the front sight viewed from the muzzle, see how it sets to the shooters left:
Here is a view looking down on the barrel from the shooters right, behind the sight. See how the blade is positioned to the left? Yet the channel in which it sets is dead center on the rib.
And here is another view, you can see the "L" stamp on the blade. I would deduce that there must be I stamped ordinary blades, and ones stamped "R", which would set to the shooters right.
Well, that's enough minutiae for tonight!!! Probably put some readers to sleep!!!
Best regards, Les
Glad you have that qualification behind you. I still keep up at least yearly qualification with my old department in order to keep my LEOSA active. I also have a West Virgina concealed carry permit, which is now accepted in something like 39 states. I also have a Florida Concealed carry permit. At one time, WV did not have reciprocity with either Georgia or Alabama, and there is no way to drive to Florida without going through one of those states. So I got a Florida permit, which was and still is good in GA and AL. I have a good friend, former Police Chief, and then college professor like myself who lives in Florida since he retired, and I go down to visit with him now and then, and always drive . Don't know if I'll renew it when it expires in 2018, since WV's is now good in, I believe all of the states that honor FL's. Well, we'll see. Why have both LEOSA and a Concealed Carry permit? Partly like a belt and suspenders thing. I'm always worried that I'll be somewhere where they don't know about LEOSA, but honor the state permit, or vice versa. Also, a backup in case I miss the yearly qualification necessary for retired guys to carry. heck, here in West Virginia, they just passed a law that you don't even need a permit to carry concealed. We have never had a law against open carry here, and have never had a problem with that, so I don't really anticipate any problems when this new law becomes effective June 5th of this year. I think everyone who wanted to carry a gun was already doing so anyway.
I always enjoy your stories, and am now enjoying tinkering with my "new" Enfield No 2. I have already found the issue with the front sight that I mentioned in my above post. It seems, based on my single specimen, that there were different blades that you could interchange to adjust for windage, and probably for elevation as well. Mine is marked "L", and clearly sits in the groove that is in the barrel rib off to the left. It is specifically machined to do so. I will try to photograph it and add to this post so you can see what I'm trying to describe. It would be neat to find a source for other blades, made to sit in the center of the rib, and on the right. This is probably something that others know about, but it is all new to me, even though most of these were made before I was born.
Here is the front sight viewed from the muzzle, see how it sets to the shooters left:
Here is a view looking down on the barrel from the shooters right, behind the sight. See how the blade is positioned to the left? Yet the channel in which it sets is dead center on the rib.
And here is another view, you can see the "L" stamp on the blade. I would deduce that there must be I stamped ordinary blades, and ones stamped "R", which would set to the shooters right.
Well, that's enough minutiae for tonight!!! Probably put some readers to sleep!!!
Best regards, Les
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Andrew2105
Member
Texas Star,
My apologies for my post somehow convincing someone that your words were mine. That was never my intention. How you could be so certain that I had never seen the book amazes me..you are correct..how did you know?
I haven't read any of the Fleming novels since the mid 1960's or so. As I recall the stories & their details were not precisely followed from book to film. To put myself in the frying pan again..I seem to recall JB using a Colt Police Positive Special in the book "The Spy Who Loved me"
Best.
My apologies for my post somehow convincing someone that your words were mine. That was never my intention. How you could be so certain that I had never seen the book amazes me..you are correct..how did you know?
I haven't read any of the Fleming novels since the mid 1960's or so. As I recall the stories & their details were not precisely followed from book to film. To put myself in the frying pan again..I seem to recall JB using a Colt Police Positive Special in the book "The Spy Who Loved me"
Best.
Les, you got my curiosity going and I went and retrieved my bedside Enfield for a quick check of the front sight. My battered, but unbowed Enfield, has a tiny marking on the front sight blade. Too small for me to see, even with my bi-focals. The blade seats dead center on the post however one of my Webley MK IV's has this off-center front sight like your Enfield. However in shooting, under 10-feet, it is accurate enough to be fatal. Les, you got a great firearm in your Enfield! Your enclosed target picture shows me that yours too, is accurate enough to be fatal! Thanks for your pictures and post Mr. Les!
David
David
Yesterday, "the book" was delivered from Abe's. Thought it would take two weeks, but three days is better.
Much nicer than the library copy. Published by Crown in 1970. I like my books, and The Handgun is a fine addition to the library.
Enjoying the thread too, so you guys just chatter away.
Much nicer than the library copy. Published by Crown in 1970. I like my books, and The Handgun is a fine addition to the library.
Enjoying the thread too, so you guys just chatter away.
The Enfield Revolver, whether it be the .476 Model or the .380 Model, has always been a symbol of "good" and was readily identified as an arm of the British Military. This also includes the legendary Webley Models. For myself, I see these firearms as symbols of British prestige, might, and power. I visualize the British Officer standing tall, standing proud, facing down over whelming adversity armed with Webley/Enfield Revolver, most likely ingrained from watching the movies "ZULU" and "ZULU DAWN" too many times. But make no mistake, these Brit guns captured my imagination as a young man, thrilled me to death when I finally acquired one, and made me a prisoner to collecting these wonderful arms. It is also rewarding to find like-minded people here that also appreciate these arms. The search for new data on these never ceases with the collector/shooter. When the Stamps/Skennerton book(.380 Enfield no. 2 Revolver) came out in the 1990's, it created a big "stir" to Enfield collectors. The Webley book, mentioned in previous posts, is just too expensive for my pocketbook. I would love to find one, reasonably priced. Anyway, thanks to all who have posted here. It is always interesting to hear what other Webley/Enfield friends have to say. Thank you again my friends!
David
David
David, just a footnote on the front sight issue I mentioned in my post #92 above, I found a reference in the Stamps-Skennerton book on p 61, to there being three different front sight blades. Standard, left off-set, .02", and right off-set, .02". So my initial deduction seems accurate. Remember, even though one of my first handguns was a Webley back in 1960s, this is my first Enfield, and all this is new to me.
M1A: I just got my "The Handgun" a few days ago also from "Abe's". It's quite a handful. I have a feeling that some of my summer vacation reading is just ahead. But I just recently finished all three volumes of the biography of Sir Bernard Montgomery (Monty), so I'm up for a little "heavy" reading. For those of you who haven't seen this book, and I had never heard of it until our friend Texas Star mentioned it, it is HEAVY. You literally get your money's worth, by the pound. By the way, Abebooks have copies of this book at very reasonable prices.
Best Regards, Les
M1A: I just got my "The Handgun" a few days ago also from "Abe's". It's quite a handful. I have a feeling that some of my summer vacation reading is just ahead. But I just recently finished all three volumes of the biography of Sir Bernard Montgomery (Monty), so I'm up for a little "heavy" reading. For those of you who haven't seen this book, and I had never heard of it until our friend Texas Star mentioned it, it is HEAVY. You literally get your money's worth, by the pound. By the way, Abebooks have copies of this book at very reasonable prices.
Best Regards, Les
Texas Star
US Veteran
I'm not sure if I can post a link to see a whole movie here, so go to YouTube anD LOOK FOR A FILM FROM ABOUT 1960 CALleD, "fLAME oVER India". I JUst SAW IT THERE, AND YOU GET THE ENTRE FILM.
iT' S ONE OF THE BEST FOR SEEING Webley REVOLVERS AND Enfield RIFLES.
kEEP IN MIND THAT IT'S SET IN 1905. I GUESS THE RIFLES ARE MEANT TO BE smle nO. 1 mk i'S, ALThOUgH I BET Indian TROOPS THEN HAD MORE LONG LE'S. bUT LOOK AT THE RIFLES CARRIED BY THE EXTAS. SOME SOLDIers have No. 4 rifles! I think these men were real Indian soldiers, and carried what they had.
Sorry for the messy post . I'm up all night and going to bed. No time to re-type when the BLEEPING Caps Lock comes on. I look down to type and by the time I see the result, it takes forever to re-type. Sometimes, my patience fails.
Look carefully at the Captain's Webley (s) One is def. a MK VI, but I think I saw a different one in a scene or two. Look also for the old Maxim gun on the train. I think the barrel jacket is brass.
The officer couldn't have had a MK VI in 1905, as it wasn't made until ten years later. But Webley was then making an Army Model that looked a lot like a MK VI except for the front sight being like on a MK IV. The Wilkinson-Webley Model of 1905 had just come out, and it looked a lot like a MK VI. Could he have just bought a brand new one? Maybe. I'm sure the film people did the best they could.
You guys who bought the Boothroyd book can find Webleys of that day therein.
If you watch, "Flame Over India", let me know if you like it. It has a good cast, inc, Kenneth More and Lauren Bacall and Herbert Lom. I liked it so well that I bought the DVD. It was in theaters when I was a teen and I first saw it then.
iT' S ONE OF THE BEST FOR SEEING Webley REVOLVERS AND Enfield RIFLES.
kEEP IN MIND THAT IT'S SET IN 1905. I GUESS THE RIFLES ARE MEANT TO BE smle nO. 1 mk i'S, ALThOUgH I BET Indian TROOPS THEN HAD MORE LONG LE'S. bUT LOOK AT THE RIFLES CARRIED BY THE EXTAS. SOME SOLDIers have No. 4 rifles! I think these men were real Indian soldiers, and carried what they had.
Sorry for the messy post . I'm up all night and going to bed. No time to re-type when the BLEEPING Caps Lock comes on. I look down to type and by the time I see the result, it takes forever to re-type. Sometimes, my patience fails.
Look carefully at the Captain's Webley (s) One is def. a MK VI, but I think I saw a different one in a scene or two. Look also for the old Maxim gun on the train. I think the barrel jacket is brass.
The officer couldn't have had a MK VI in 1905, as it wasn't made until ten years later. But Webley was then making an Army Model that looked a lot like a MK VI except for the front sight being like on a MK IV. The Wilkinson-Webley Model of 1905 had just come out, and it looked a lot like a MK VI. Could he have just bought a brand new one? Maybe. I'm sure the film people did the best they could.
You guys who bought the Boothroyd book can find Webleys of that day therein.
If you watch, "Flame Over India", let me know if you like it. It has a good cast, inc, Kenneth More and Lauren Bacall and Herbert Lom. I liked it so well that I bought the DVD. It was in theaters when I was a teen and I first saw it then.
Texas Star
US Veteran
QUOTE=Cyrano;139068170]I just checked the front sight blade of my 1936 dated Enfield. It's marked 'N' on the right side near the front.[/QUOTE]
Colin-
That means it's best sighted to hit enemy charging from the North.
Seriously, I bet it means, Normal. Not L or R.
Colin-
That means it's best sighted to hit enemy charging from the North.
Seriously, I bet it means, Normal. Not L or R.
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