A minor major problem, coolant leak.

[Ματθιας]

I havre a late 90s Crown Vic and its been a reliable car with no major issues. I don't drive the car too much and it has relatively low miles, 82K. It lives the garage the majority of the time. Really, the only problems I've had were a fuel pump going bad and coil packs. The fuel pump wasn't too bad.

I keep up the maintenance, so the last time I took the car for an oil change at the dealer about two months ago, there weren't any major issues - of course they wanted to up-sell me all kinds work, but that's another story.

Last week, I noticed a coolant smell and then a small puddle under the car at back of the engine. I checked all the usual suspects, heater hoses, etc, and I couldn't find it. Then I went on YouTube to find other culprits. Apparently, there are known coolant issues with the 4.6L.

Long story short, the intake manifold needs to come off and a gasket set will, hopefully take care of the problem. I'm happy to say that my long time friend, a former Ford master tech, confirmed my initial diagnosis! Thanks Youtube!

It doesn't look too bad, but I'm debating doing it myself or paying him to do it...

 

[venomballistics]

Dig in.
As long as you observe the torque sequence and have the means to apply it, it's okay to take your car apart.

 

[Rotorhead1026]

Dig in.
As long as you observe the torque sequence and have the means to apply it, it's okay to take your car apart.

I just hope the heater core isn't involved.

 

[mckenney99]

Don't put the job off too long.
Chevy had the same issue with the V8 engine I had in my 1500 Z71. Some of the gaskets leaked inside and coolant mixed with the engine oil or was drawn into the cylinders with severely negative outcomes. If the gaskets go bad and leak to the outside there is a strong chance that the problem will progress to the internal leak. Luckily I noticed my external leak before it progressed. Unfortunately, my issue didn't show up until 6 months after the deadline Chevy had established for them to pay for the repairs.

 

[Ματθιας]

Here's the thing. When these cars/engines were relatively new and under warranty, there was a recall for bad manifolds, well, bad design. The original manifolds were all plastic and would crack at the thermostat housing and leak due to thermal cycling. A revised manifold took care of the problem, part aluminum at the thermostat housing and the rest plastic.

My friend was the designated recall manifold guy and has done hundreds of them. What takes him a couple, three hours, he says, would likely take me all day. Plus, if there are any issues or soon to be issues he'd be able to take care of them. My car has had the revised manifold installed by him at the dealership he worked at 20+ years ago.

I'm leaning to paying him to do it and ask him if I can watch/help. I want to learn.

 

[Breakaway500]

Those early 4.6L engines had a poor intake manifold design that was prone to leaks. Ford revised it in 1998. If its just a minor leak (isn't squirting out) you can seal it with Subaru coolant conditioner,which is the BEST coolant system sealer made. I've used it many times and with a 100% positive result. It's actually made by a U.K. company called Holtz. Available off Amazon and many other places as well (Subaru parts dept has it too)

 

[Ματθιας]

No, heater core involvement.

I've not driven the car since I noticed the leak, I'm just waiting on the gaskets my friend ordered to get shipped in.

 

[Ματθιας]

Those early 4.6L engines had a poor intake manifold design that was prone to leaks. Ford revised it in 1998. If its just a minor leak (isn't squirting out) you can seal it with Subaru coolant conditioner,which is the BEST coolant system sealer made. I've used it many times and with a 100% positive result. It's actually made by a U.K. company called Holtz. Available off Amazon and many other places as well (Subaru parts dept has it too)

Thank you for this! I'll get a couple or three for the "just in case" and "you never know situations."

 

[WardenRoss]

Common problem with the Vic's.

My '96 model (bought new) cracked its manifold around 2014. My mechanic swapped it out with the improved item. IIRC about 3 hours labor.

The good thing about the Vics is they are easy to mechanic on.

I gave the Vic to my son. He just recently sold it. Still running strong. Only other repairs in 27 years were ball joints, one fuel pump, two alternators and two MAP (I think) sensors. The AC compressor went out in 2012.

,

 

[Ματθιας]

Common problem with the Vic's.

My '96 model (bought new) cracked its manifold around 2014. My mechanic swapped it out with the improved item. IIRC about 3 hours labor.

The good thing about the Vics is they are easy to mechanic on.

I gave the Vic to my son. He just recently sold it. Still running strong. Only other repairs in 27 years were ball joints, one fuel pump, two alternators and two MAP (I think) sensors. The AC compressor went out in 2012.

,

I don't know what it is about Ford alternators, but when mine finally went out, I had to get three alternators before I finally got a good one that wouldn't set the battery light off. It was a made in china Napa part. Bad alternators also seem to be a somewhat common Ford problem.

I kept the original alternator and had it rebuilt to a high output police spec for the "you never know" situation.

 

[WardenRoss]

Really, two alternators in 20 something years ain't bad.

The second one was an Advanced Auto brand (IIRC). It didn't last long. The Motorcraft (Ford OEM) brand do fine.

,

 

[LVSteve]

Quite why Ford have such issues keeping coolant in the right places is beyond me. Jaguar were forced to use a Ford water pump while Ford owned them, and a host of catastrophic failures followed. Shouldn't the engine water pump been declared a mature technology long before the end of the 20th century?

 

[JohnRippert]

Pay the man to do it. If you do it yourself, I guarantee by the end of the job you will be cursing yourself for not getting him to do it.

 

[wetdog]

It could also be one of the heater hoses. Both are at the back of the engine. The water line from the pump runs under the intake manifold to the rear of the passenger side cyl. head and is the inlet to the heater core.The outlet from the core goes to a nipple at the rear of the intake manifold. These leaks show at the back of the engine. Info is from my 2003 town car.

 

[Golddollar]

My friend was the designated recall manifold guy and has done hundreds of them. What takes him a couple, three hours, he says, would likely take me all day. Plus, if there are any issues or soon to be issues he'd be able to take care of them. My car has had the revised manifold installed by him at the dealership he worked at 20+ years ago.

I'm leaning to paying him to do it and ask him if I can watch/help. I want to learn.

Pay the man to do it. If you do it yourself, I guarantee by the end of the job you will be cursing yourself for not getting him to do it.

I had the exact same problem with my 2008 Grand Marquis (Batmobile #2) that only had about 152,000 miles on it. I also recommend paying the man who has done this work hundreds of times. For this day and age, what I paid to get this work done and restore one of the classic big old Ford V-8 products to operating status was the equivalent of less than 3 current car payments, as opposed to 60 payments for a new vehicle. At 152,000 miles Batmobile #2 was just getting broken in, so yeah, it was a pretty penny I paid, but worth every cent in my opinion.

 

[steelslaver]

Have 2 Lincoln Town Cars with the 4.6 and so far no problems. One has 120,000 and the other 16o,000. Nice rides, 22 mpg cruising at 75-80 in comfort

 

[Gamecock]

I do a lot of my own work. At my advanced age, a key decision factor is "Am I going to learn anything useful from doing this?"

This leak is surely a one-off, something you'll never deal with again. Have your friend do it.

 

[WR Moore]

While Utube can give you some general ideas, sometimes there are a few things they don't address. Or, there are possible issues they don't address.

If you're going DIY, take LOTS of pictures of what stuff looks like before you start removing bits.

About leak stoppers.... I've found Bar's Leak to be an excellent product Once walked in front of my just shut off car and got burned. Looked back and saw a stream of coolant coming from a very small puncture of a radiator tube. The guy at the part store across the parking lot sold me bottle of Bar's Leak and I put it in and then had lunch while the car was idling. I watched the leak slow, then stop. A visual inspection before driving off showed complete sealing. Drove that car for years afterward.

 

[CalifEd]

Pay the expert his fee.
Many experts will charge a Kibitz fee, us armatures keep getting in their way.

 

[Oldengineer]

Just information. An often overlooked maintenance requirement is changing the coolant. As it ages, the chemistry becomes more acidic (read corrosive) and begins to attack things like water pump seals, rubber hoses, etc. I recall that a time release "pill" was added to the radiator at the assembly plant to help push the coolant change interval out. I left the intake manifold business before the cracking began, so I can't comment on that.

Tom H.

 

[SMSgt]

Had to replace the plastic thermostat housing on the wife's Explorer twice for cracking. The engineer(s) who signs off on plastic engine parts cannot be tortured to death painfully or slowly enough.

 

[Oldengineer]

Quite why Ford have such issues keeping coolant in the right places is beyond me. Jaguar were forced to use a Ford water pump while Ford owned them, and a host of catastrophic failures followed. Shouldn't the engine water pump been declared a mature technology long before the end of the 20th century?

LVSteve,

I'll take a stab at your question. You are correct; water pump design and manufacturing is not esoteric. The problems arise when you decide to outsource the part to a supplier that wins the business on price. Usually the supplier then proceeds to cut corners to optimize their profits. Ford Supplier Quality Assurance (SQA) is charged with making sure that this doesn't happen. In this case, the concern doesn't show up right away. The supplier likely buys the bearings and seals from another supplier, and the finger pointing begins. This happens when Ford Purchasing insists on paying $20 for a $30 part. Short story with much more involved, but hopefully you get the idea.

 

[chief38]

Before doing anything, check around the water pump. Your milage is about the time they go.

 

[Grayfox]

Back in the 90s, the Ford Crown Victoria with the 4.6 engine was the absolute king of police cars. My city had a bunch of 'em.
I'm very familiar with the problem you describe. We changed a lot of those bad intake manifolds. Our parts man kept all the needed stuff in stock and the repair was quick and easy IF you had done it before. But there are little tricks to it that the pros get used to, but amateurs don't know that will cost them time and trouble.
For example, someone already mentioned that heater pipe under the intake. Since you're already there, we would go ahead and change out the O-ring and heater hose on that. Depending on wear, maybe even the whole pipe as the O-ring end was known to wear over an extended time.
I have no doubt that a fairly talented amateur could do the job, however some things are best left to the professionals if for no other reason than just to avoid the aggravation.

 

[Oldengineer]

Had to replace the plastic thermostat housing on the wife's Explorer twice for cracking. The engineer(s) who signs off on plastic engine parts cannot be tortured to death painfully or slowly enough.

Again, just information. The Explorer V6 was designed and manufactured in Cologne, Germany. It started life as a 2.6 L used primarily in Europe. In Germany, you essentially own the labor force for life. The engine plant capacity was available, so the 2.6L/2.8L was made into a 4.0L for use in Explorers. Here's the hard part; Design Verification (DV) testing is run on an accelerated schedule using dynamometers and General Durability vehicles running day and night on test tracks. This continuous testing simulates 120,000 miles which is considered the useful life. It does not address the time element, and nobody knows what happens after 120K miles. The engineers that devised the test protocols don't have crystal balls. They rely on pre-production hardware and expect the in-production hardware to be the same as they tested. With the advent of engineering polymers used under hood, there was a lot to learn. Hope this helps.

 

[Oldengineer]

I don't know what it is about Ford alternators, but when mine finally went out, I had to get three alternators before I finally got a good one that wouldn't set the battery light off. It was a made in china Napa part. Bad alternators also seem to be a somewhat common Ford problem.

I kept the original alternator and had it rebuilt to a high output police spec for the "you never know" situation.

The key to long alternator life is mounting it high on the engine, out of the way of adverse weather conditions. This is not always possible. Real estate under hood is very precious and expensive. You guys are really testing my long term memory! I've been retired for almost 20 years.

 

[Doug M.]

Sometimes the best tool for the job is a checkbook. There is little worse than getting some distance into a modest job and finding out something that is outside your skill set. I have learned to avoid that path and pay someone to handle the matter; it usually less annoying and costly in the long run.

 

[arjay]

Pay the expert his fee.
Many experts will charge a Kibitz fee, us armatures keep getting in their way.

Costs even more if we help lol

 

[Ματθιας]

Thanks, everybody!!! I'm taking the advice you all gave me, my friend is going to do it. I'm taking it to him tomorrow - his day off.

After talking to him and asking him what the worst case would be, a cracked manifold - in terms of auto repair, the worst case, more often than not, happens to me. Besides that, while he's in there I asked him to service the cooling system and look for any more potential issues and take care of them.

It'll work out for the best this way.

 

[Ματθιας]

I got my car back. It turned out to be a gasket that hardened up, got flat and that was the cause of the leak. (Just idling in the driveway for about 5min dumped about a cup of coolant(!)) My friend can't explain why it did that, his best guess is thermo-cycling. I'm glad it's just that and not the manifold!

Other than that, no major issues!, but I asked him to do a complete 100K mile service on the car sometime next month. I'm all about maintenance.

Again, thanks, everyone!!!