A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?

[MrSurly]

Hi folks. Hoping to find a little info on what I believe to be a "real" Bekeart and looking for input.

I have a few SW handguns but not any collectibles. When I found this I ran to the web and the web brought me to this wonderful place! Lots of info!

This piece seems to be in excellent mechanical condition lacking only in the cosmetics. It looks like a gun that was handled a lot but fired very little. I picture a young boy twirling this thing endlessly instead of doing his homework or chores! The rifling is excellent, as are the timing and lock up. All numbers match with the serial #207998 appearing on the grip frame, the grips (in pencil) barrel flat, cylinder, and the backside of the star. In addition, the sideplate,frame and crane have #3267 on them.
The grip has 2117 stamped in the bottom.

My questions are: is it 1 of 3000? Does it appear legit? I don't know what qualifies as a real Bekeart...is this one?
(apologies for the pic quality) The bluing on the frame is flaked or worn, not sure the reason for that but there's no rust or pitting or damage. The bluing on the barrel is flawless. What would a quality reblue of the frame do to the value?

Anyone have an idea on value as-is?

If pics do not appear its because I'm still trying to figure the method for posting...please bear with me(!)
Thanks in advance!

 

[bmg60]

Hi
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.
and they were call 22/32 heavy target models.
thats what your gun is and it was shipped in the late 1918 to 1920.
I hope this helps.
Jim Fisher
Here is a picture of a one of 292 first shippment to Bekeart.
and the real box.
the Grip number is #274 Serial Number of gun Is 138539 and it shipped to Phil Bekeart.

 

[murphydog]

Welcome to the Forum, if I am the first to say that.

It has one of the first 3000 sets of stocks made, but with the SN I believe they are too early for the gun. The .22/32 model SNs started in the 138000 range, so the last of the numbered stocks should have been on a gun no later than the early 140000 range. If you look carefully on the inside panels with angled light you may see a SN in pencil, which would be from the gun that had the stocks originally.

It is, in any case, a Bekeart type or model, but not one of the earliest 292 guns actually shipped to his shop in 1911. Rebluing would cut its value by 50% or more, so personally I would leave it alone. Hope this is helpful.

 

[opoefc]

As said above, your .22/32 Heavy Frame Target is not a "true" Bekeart, in that it was not shipped to Phil Bekeart in San Francisco in 1911. It was one of 490 guns shipped to M.W.Robinson, NYC., in Jan. 1914. Over the years someone has added grips from the 3000 numbered pairs. I would not advise a refinish, as the gun's value will be decresed somewhat, plus the cost of quality refinish can exceed the refinished gun's value. Current value is not high, as these guns are not that scarce. I would estimate it at $600-$750 range, depending on location. Ed.

 

[Hondo44]

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but the reason the barrel is so nice is because it's been replaced. The barrel and ejector knob are clearly post war. Check Jim's gun above and notice the large ejector knob and notch under the barrel to accomodate it compared to yours. Does your barrel have patent dates on the top surface? The picture is not clear enough for me to see. Post war barrels do not.

Because it's serial numbered to your gun usually indicates it was replaced at the factory. However I don't think so because:

1. it should have a small diamond stamped by the number,
2. it should have a star stamped behind the grip frame number and,
3. it should have a 3 or 4 digit date stamped on the left side of the grip frame.

But it is an early gun as evidenced by the non-recessed chambers, it's in great condition, and a fine piece to shoot and or just enjoy. I would definitely not have refinised; it will never look as good as it does now unless you spend more than it's worth; about $450 to $500 IMHO.

 

[MrSurly]

Facts don't rain on my parade, I've got thick skin and I came here for the straight skinny. Real information doesn't bother me in the least and I didn't arrive here with delusions about the piece being one that Bekeart personally handled.

What does bug me a bit is skimming.
Maybe my pictures didn't show for you guys? I dont know, but please re-read my original post? Please look at the first picture again?
from the text:"serial #207998 appearing on the grip frame, the grips (in pencil) barrel flat, cylinder,"
The picture (at least on my monitor) clearly shows the penciled serial number and the 2117 stamped in the bottom.

It would seem that the position some of you are taking is either
1. you didn't notice the text or the picture, OR
2. you are saying the grips are a fraud.
Please clarify.

3. I wanted to know the meaning of "true Bekeart"; the answer is 'only those that were shipped to Bekeart'.
Thats exactly what I wanted to know, it doesn't trouble my parade at all, guys.

4. the follow-on question is what is the significance of the 2708 guns that were specially numbered? Hardly seems likely that the value of a numbered series is nil, but I don't know.

5. The confusion (if thats what it is) over the grips and the gun being #2117 of 3000 appears to mainly be rooted in an idea that all serial numbers are serial and the extension that the first 3000 set had to be manufactured in a contiguous run starting at 138xxx therefore ending at 141xxx.
I have some question as whether that is known fact, or merely assumption. My recollection is that somewhere I read that the numbering of these was shared with the 32s and they are not all-in-a-set because of this.

6. is it established fact that all 3000 shipped in 1911?

Please dont take my questions as taking offense, fellas, I'm only looking for facts; ! just need for them to all mesh with each other if possible.

7. I am curious about the barrel as well as it looks remarkably nice. Included in my first post is a pic that (might need to zoom it) shows the serial number, looking hand-stamped, AND a B and a B-in-a-diamond. does that clear anything up? I can't find a star or a rework date anywhere on the frame, thats why I have the 'naked' pics.

8. I noticed the difference in the two-step barrel but I don't know when the production change occurred.

Thanks!

 

[Göring's S&W]

6. is it established fact that all 3000 shipped in 1911?

I don't think it is and I disagree that the first 3000 grips / guns should be no later than SN 140XXX.

It has one of the first 3000 sets of stocks made, but with the SN I believe they are too early for the gun. The .22/32 model SNs started in the 138000 range, so the last of the numbered stocks should have been on a gun no later than the early 140000 range.

Per the SCSW 3rd, the 22/32s were made in specific SN ranges which were a smaller PART of the SN range / production for the 32 heavy frame target revolvers. The first 292 are a lower SN (after the first 292, there was a distinct SN break before the second run), but my Bekeart is a 263XXX IIRC and it has the 1 of 3000 numbered grips. In other words, there were multiple runs, so it would depend on how many were made of each run and in what SN range each run was in before you can say "well the cutoff for the numbered grips is...XYZ" I will take off mine tonite to make sure they number to my gun.

Also, to clear up the confusion about what consitutes a true bekeart, it generally refers to the first 292 which were shipped to Bekeart BUT since he sold his so fast, its obvious that later 22/32s were shipped to Bekeart as well which IMO would also constitute "true" Bekeart status, just not first 22/32 shipment status.

 

[bmg60]

hi
I will try and help you a little. yes the b in a diamond indicates rework to the gun.
the 3000 grips were not all shipped on guns in a continous
production.
most of the numbered grips I have seen on guns were used between 13xxxx and the high 16xxxx range.
I have another 22/32 that has grips numbered in the high 2xxx range and it is in the 168xxx range.
the penciled numbers on your grips are to dark and to large conpared to others I have seen. I think the grips are not orginal to the gun.
I hope this helps.
it is still a nice example of a 22/33 target.
but does not have a high collector Value.
Jim Fisher
S&WCA 1491

 

[Göring's S&W]

I will try and help you a little. yes the b in a diamond indicates rework to the gun.
the 3000 grips were not all shipped on guns in a continous
production.
most of the numbered grips I have seen on guns were used between 13xxxx and the high 16xxxx range.

Come to think of it, I think my gun is a 163XXX not 263XXX. This would explain why I'm 95% sure that they're original grips on mine despite the 263XXX SN that I posted. It was simply the wrong SN. I will check it out later.

 

[bmg60]

hi
I looked up my other 22/32 it is serial number 164xxx and the grip number is 1869.
just more information.
jim

 

[RayGT3]

Don't want to hijack this thread but have always wondered about how my gun relates to the Bekeart story, if at all. The S/N is 1632XX and the stamp on the grip is 1181. Have no reason to believe it is anything but origonal. Any relavant status information regarding this guy would be most appreciated.

Thanks all

 

[Bill Bates]

Besides the pencil being a little dark, I'm not sure I have ever seen the serial number in pencil on the left grip panel. Just to be sure i pulled the grips from three other revolver of the same vintage. All had their serial numbers on the right panel.

Of course with Smiths never say never always applies and none of these revolvers were .22 or the same models as the OPs.

 

[bmg60]

hi
The S/N is 1632XX and the stamp on the grip is 1181. Have no reason to believe it is anything but origonal. Any relavant status information regarding this guy would be most appreciated.

Your gun is in the right range to be in the second shippment of these guns. but only a factory letter will tell were it shipped.
The first shippment to bekeart were 292 guns. the only guns that I have seen that letter in the first shippment are in the 13XXXX range. But like I said
only a factory letter will tell you.
jim

 

[ischia]

Bekaert?

I've owned #164122 with 1858 stamped on the grip bottom for over 40 years. It is a very early gun 1912-1913 but not one of the first 273? or so shipped to San Francisco. Your grips may or may not be correct,as stated this number did not follow production serial #'s for this model only. Later models have silver medallions and later still none at all. Some more research is in order. Perhaps you could do some trading for the correct grips and make someone very happy with your grips. Early, numbered on bottom grips, are extremely hard to find and can bring $250 and up easily if nice. I haven't seen any ratty ones to turn down as well. Great shooter with low speed ammo only. Hope this helps.

All the Best,

 

[Hondo44]

8. I noticed the difference in the two-step barrel but I don't know when the production change occurred.
Thanks!

8. Post WW II.

 

[Bekeart]

What Serial Number range for the THIRD thousand??

I have collected information about Frame Serial Number and matching Grip Numbers whenever possible.

Have not learned the serial number range for the THIRD thousand produced.

FIRST thousand 138xxx - 139xxx
SECOND thousand 163xxx - 164xxx

Can anybody supply a serial number between 164xxx and 207xxx ??

Bekeart

22/32 Heavy Frame Target

Start Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?



22/32 Serial Number / Grip Number that I have learned of

138245 / 47
138368 / 111
138437 / 567
138539 / 274
138569 / 683
138583 / ?? Shipped July 20, 1911 - Hartley & Company
138934 / 518
139079 / ?? Shipped September 11, 1911 - Folsom & Company
139254 / 989 Shipped September 15, 1911 - Termusch Fishing and Tackle Company
163198 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163234 / ?? Shipped May 1912
1632xx / 1181
163353 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163373 / 1222 Shipped May 1912
1633xx / 1133
1635xx / 1298
1636XX / 1693
163605 / ?? Shipped in May 1912, but did NOT go to Bekeart.
163662 / 1615 Shipped to Bekeart on June 3, 1912
163698 / ?? did go to Bekeart in June 1912.
163803 / 1546
163908 / 1686
164112 / 2046
164122 / 1858
164xxx / 1869


?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.

 

[MrSurly]

It seems many are of the opinion that my grips are not original to this gun but I'm not certain there's a concensus on just why they must be wrong. Has anyone established the highest serial # for the '3000' guns?

Here is a pic of both grips.

and this is a link to a high res crop.

Look 'em over and tell me... if it just can't be original, please explain?

I'm here for the facts, I ain't scared of 'em.

Thanks
Ricky

 

[sceva]

You have a very nice revolver even with a replaced barrel. Something to keep in mind is that a penciled number on the inside of the grip is not proof of anything. Anyone with a pencil can put it there.

 

[RayGT3]

Full S/N, to place in listing, 163209, grip 1181.

 

[MrSurly]

FIRST thousand 138xxx - 139xxx
SECOND thousand 163xxx - 164xxx

Can anybody supply a serial number between 164xxx and 207xxx ??

Bekeart

?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.

Thanks for posting this! I THINK your info implies that the grips COULD be original(?)

Looking through the list you posted is bizzare! the serial and grip numbers aren't even in any real order! Well, I guess they are roughly in order. I'm guessing that the guns were on the line and complete but for grips when someone delivered a box of grips that were already numbered matched pairs...then they were just grabbed from the box randomly for installation as normally done, and the frame number written on the grip as it met the frame. Grips are not usually numbered so I would think this would be common practice. So, a box of say, 200 matched pairs might go on the first 200 guns, but the third gun might have grip number 110 or whatever.
Thanks, waiting for more!