A note to newbies, like me!

[LL617]

I have found a great group that encourages education, safe shooting techniques, and fun. It's like the S&W forum, except for the hands-on training that is provided.

Last week the instructor [who is going through the entire NRA safety course slowly] recommended that we remove the ammo in our CC gun at least every ninety days and refresh with new ammo. As he stated, the old ammo is probably still in great shape, but with the exposure to body oils, temperature differentials, etc., you are betting your life that the ammo is still in top condition. Since I occasionally switch between carry guns and load and unload them, I paid particular attention to this.

My CWP instructor had previously recommended that we rotate the magazines in our pistols and unload them every 90 days so that the springs could relax; this would enable them to last longer. So this second piece of advice strikes a cord with me.

Thought I'd pass this information along. I've marked my box so that the "used" ammo will be going to the range to be shot after it has served its 90 days in the CW...I pray it will always be 90 boring days....

 

[jimmib]

I see nothing wrong with his advice....I personally shoot what is in my carry pistol each time I go to the range to keep how it shoots with that ammo fresh in my mind...I do need to mark my mags so I am not using the same one all the time.....sounds like a good course you are taking

 

[The Big D]

Say what?

I suggest you find a new instructor.

Be safe.

I have found a great group that encourages education, safe shooting techniques, and fun. It's like the S&W forum, except for the hands-on training that is provided.

Last week the instructor [who is going through the entire NRA safety course slowly] recommended that we remove the ammo in our CC gun at least every ninety days and refresh with new ammo. As he stated, the old ammo is probably still in great shape, but with the exposure to body oils, temperature differentials, etc., you are betting your life that the ammo is still in top condition. Since I occasionally switch between carry guns and load and unload them, I paid particular attention to this.

My CWP instructor had previously recommended that we rotate the magazines in our pistols and unload them every 90 days so that the springs could relax; this would enable them to last longer. So this second piece of advice strikes a cord with me.

Thought I'd pass this information along. I've marked my box so that the "used" ammo will be going to the range to be shot after it has served its 90 days in the CW...I pray it will always be 90 boring days....

 

[Alk8944]

As a general rule there is nothing wrong with this advice on either count, except it is really being excessively over cautious. It will do no harm except financial.

First point. He is absolutely wrong about automatic magazines and letting the springs "relax". What wears springs is compression cycles, not constant compression. This has been proved many times by loaded magazines for the 1911 being found in a deceased relatives goods which were loaded with appropriate vintage ammunition from WWII and even WWI. They have usually been reported as functioning normally after many years, both the magazine and the ammunition when the reporter has taken the gun and magazines out and shot them!

Second point, ammunition. Ammunition in the gun is not exposed to body oils. As long as it is checked periodically when the gun is cleaned, and the gun is not corroding from moisture, there is little to worry about. My wife has washed my speed loaders several times! When this happens I take that ammunition out the next time I do any chronographing and compare results to when I originally chronographed it. So far I have never had a failure to fire or any reduction in performance! I habitually pick up .22 ammunition I find on the ground and shoot it. It makes no difference if it has a firing pin indent, has been dented or is badly oxidized. Clean it up and if it will chamber it is shot. Of the very few that do not fire on the first strike I will try again. If still no fire I pull the bullets. Of several hundred rounds picked up over the past many years only a few have not fired normally. Of those that did not fire all had powder, and most did not have any priming. Maybe 2 appeared normal and may have been affected by water from laying out in the weather.

 

[Smoke]

I suggest you find a new instructor.

Be safe.

You know that's a really good way to run someone off. If you think he needs a new instructor perhaps you could tell him why you think that and point out specific deficiencies

 

[Rastoff]

...going through the entire NRA safety course slowly

Which course specifically? Is he becoming an instructor or is he teaching you slowly?

...recommended that we remove the ammo in our CC gun at least every ninety days and refresh with new ammo.

This advice is neither hot nor cold. If you don't handle your ammo, it will last indefinitely. I would recommend unloading your carry gun ballistically while practicing at the range. It is my opinion that your carry ammo should not get 90 days old because you'll be practicing with it at least one mag at a time every time you go to the range.

My CWP instructor had previously recommended that we rotate the magazines in our pistols and unload them every 90 days so that the springs could relax;

This is an old school myth. The simple truth is that magazines don't wear out by sitting loaded. A spring will compress over time, but not enough to make a difference in operation.

...I pray it will always be 90 boring days....

This is always a good prayer.

 

[ProgressiveTruth]

Explain please formthis Newbe chronographing.

 

[Rastoff]

Explain please formthis Newbe chronographing.

Measuring the actual speed at the muzzle.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

The relaxing spring tension is a misunderstanding.

A spring is worn by repeatedly being compressed then uncompressed. Being left compressed or uncompressed does it no harm.

A car sat in a driveway for years awaiting the new head gasket that somehow never gets gotten around to doesn't need to be left on jacks directly to the chassis to save the springs.

90 days is a little OTT, it's the rounds that get chambered and unchambered you need to watch... this can happen:

 

[The Big D]

Oops.

Sorry, Smoke; thought it was obvious.

My point is that the instructor is presenting information that, while not patently false, is misleading and not based in fact. That seems to be a trend, sadly.

LL617, hope i did not offend you. Welcome to the Forum. You will learn a lot here.

Be safe.

You know that's a really good way to run someone off. If you think he needs a new instructor perhaps you could tell him why you think that and point out specific deficiencies

 

[venomballistics]

The relaxing spring tension is a misunderstanding.

A spring is worn by repeatedly being compressed then uncompressed. Being left compressed or uncompressed does it no harm.

A car sat in a driveway for years awaiting the new head gasket that somehow never gets gotten around to doesn't need to be left on jacks directly to the chassis to save the springs.

90 days is a little OTT, it's the rounds that get chambered and unchambered you need to watch... this can happen:

we like pictures.
this one is a valid carry ammo concern.
it is caused by the round being repeatedly chambered in an auto. It is referred to as set back.
most seasoned handloaders know that the seating depth of a bullet has an effect on chamber pressure.
when the bullet gets driven into the case as in the picture, the pressure runs high, sometimes dangerously so.

my solution to this is two fold.
first, do not over handle your defensive arms.
any time you have your gun in your hands. you open up some statistical odds of a negligent discharge.
with enough frequency to multiply those statistical odds, an ND becomes an eventual certainty.

second, because it is a good idea to give your arms a once over and or cleaning from time to time, when you rack the slide, ejecting the round in the chamber, have a marker handy.
that round that falls out earns a stripe.
three stripes earns retirement of that round, and is added to ammo for the range.


the body oil argument makes little sense ... the gun might see this, but the round is protected by the gun.
Body heat cycles ... hmm ... that's worth an experiment.
I don't think it would have any significant effect.
I've fired rounds scrounged up off the floorboards of my car without issue and being black as sin, it gets a heck of a lot hotter than I do.
Of course a structured experiment would trump this anecdotal observation, if available

 

[Rastoff]

first, do not over handle your defensive arms.
any time you have your gun in your hands. you open up some statistical odds of a negligent discharge.
with enough frequency to multiply those statistical odds, an ND becomes an eventual certainty.

This is an important point.

Years ago, when I first started to show an interest in knives, my father took me out and showed me how to use one properly. A couple of years later I joined the boy scouts. My father noticed something and told me about it; the other boys were "playing" with their knives where I didn't. His theory, and I believe it's correct, is that I got the 'novelty' of the knife out of my system before I joined the scouts. Thus, I had moved on to the understanding of it as a tool rather than a toy.

The same happens with new shooters. When I go to firearms schools, I can usually pick out those that carry regularly and those that only carry at the class or just started. How? Because the new people are constantly touching their gun. This is not a hard and fast rule, but it is 80% true.

three stripes earns retirement of that round, and is added to ammo for the range.

I would add a step to your test. Every time you go to put a stripe on that round, check it against an unloaded round. Set back could happen on the first instance of loading.

 

[venomballistics]

I would add a step to your test. Every time you go to put a stripe on that round, check it against an unloaded round. Set back could happen on the first instance of loading.

by no means would that be a bad addition to the method.
However, I'd think that an arm that would induce significant setback on the first chambering, would also have a high likelihood of being prone to jams which must disqualify the gun as a carry piece.
as I think of it ... it would disqualify it entirely as having to clear it constantly really busts ones zen when your on the range for the joy of it.

 

[Rastoff]

I agree that a gun that malfunctions a lot should be disqualified as a carry gun. However, the nature of any auto-loading pistol means that it can induce set back.

I only mention that it can happen on the first use because I've seen it. Maybe it was due to a weak crimp or something else, but it can happen.

 

[venomballistics]

I agree that a gun that malfunctions a lot should be disqualified as a carry gun. However, the nature of any auto-loading pistol means that it can induce set back.

I only mention that it can happen on the first use because I've seen it. Maybe it was due to a weak crimp or something else, but it can happen.

true enough. possibly more so now than ever since the industry is cranking full tilt production boogie and barely holding any ground.

I'd think that would start to point to a need to evaluate abnormal trends in a systems performance in general.
what changed when a smooth running gun suddenly developed an issue?
ammo and mags are the usual suspects .. but certainly not limited to just that.

another thing I think we should bring to the attention of a newbie is the importance of the first shot.
the first round fired may be the only one successfully fired in a fight due to possible malfunction or, you yourself getting shot and becoming incapacitated.

I borrowed this pic from a different thread .. as I think of this target, the more I kinda like it.
its oval zones represent the best places to put a bullet for effect.
As you practice, try to limit yourself to hits in these zones. The smaller the caliber, the more critical this becomes.
In fact, add a reduced sized oval to the center of each, and try to that.
at no time is accuracy ever a liability.

 

[Arik]

Ammo in the mag will last quite a long time unless you live next to the ocean. I think my current carry gun is going on about 2 years with the same 16 rounds. Nothing wrong with them. I'll probably shoot them within the next 6 months and replace with same

Mags wear out from use not from being compressed

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[Rastoff]

I think my current carry gun is going on about 2 years with the same 16 rounds.

Hopefully you practice with your gun more than once every two years.

 

[Arik]

Hopefully you practice with your gun more than once every two years.

Lol yes. That's the carry ammo. Speer Gold dot. I don't do too much practice with them. @ $35 a box that would be a very expensive range trip. Otherwise I shoot/practice almost every weekend

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[Rastoff]

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but not unrealistic. I know bunches who carry a gun, but have never actually fired it.

In CA a CCW must be renewed every two years. At one renewal class we had 18 students. Out of those 18, only a few had fired their gun since the last class two years prior.

 

[venomballistics]

thats really kind of a shame.
they know not the joy of sending a chunk of lead 100+ yards, sure in the knowledge that it will connect based on how it felt when fired.