a question on home defense ammo, .357/.38 rev.

Whole lotta things in one Opening Post here .


In the Universe of Ammunition , between various Medium , Tactical , " Lite" , etc .357 and hot and extra hot .38 Spl , they overlap in the middle .

What are qualities sought in Defensive Ammo generally , or additionally for Home Defensive ? :

Be reasonably effective in stopping Bad Guys .

Be reasonably controllable by the shooter , especially under stressful conditions .

Don't be massively overpenetrative inside dwelling places .

Don't be massively excessive in noise/ muzzle blast .


Starting with the second item first - Yes it is good idea to test various * catagories * of ammo , in your gun , to judge how well you can shoot/ contol them in your gun . i.e. standard pressure .38 vs .38 +P of different bullet weight vs reduced .357 .

You ( hypothetical anyone ) could be neophyte , middling , or very experienced shooter . You could be basically healthy & fit , or various combinations of physical handicaps .

A 4 inch GP-100 is a substantial gun , heavy enough to soak up good bit of recoil ( high school Physics 101 ) . As a broad simplification , said GP-100 with .38 +P will kick less than majority of duty guns & loads from the Revolver Era . But figure out that Parameter for yourself .

There actually are handgun rounds that are stopped within a single common interior wall . ( Yes , I speak from first hand .) But they are very specialized, very exotic ,very expensive , and have major trade offs , and are usually recommend against , unless you have very unique environment.

Any vaguely conventional firearm load will go thru at least one wall , they differences are a matter of degree . i.e. be worried about adjacent room vs 5 sucuessive rooms , plus exterior wall , plus neighbors.

( Essentially) Any centerfire handgun indoors is Loud . There are degrees of loud , and people could have actual medical issues with their ears .

Some guns are stupid loud - Under 3 inch .44Magnum inside a vehicle , .45-70 Contender with muzzle break , 10.5 inch bbl 5.56 , will all shake your body with the physical blast wave , and downright hurt w/o ear protection . Mainstream defensive handgun ammo is within a certain band of variation .

( I almost hesitate to mention , I have personal experience in shooting two examples pretty much at either end of typical , inside a small horse barn , kinda equivalent to large rooms in a house . A 9mm +P+ , and std pressure .45 Colt . Neither was debilitating , but after once decided 9mm +P+ was no fun w/o protection , and .45 Colt went on to account for numerous Trophy Sized Rats .)

Wadcutters ! Most Wadcutter Legands arrive from sucuessive generations of shooters rediscovering stories from ( usually LEO ) from back in Golden Age .

Specifically , back when for vast majority of non- handloaders , there were EXACTLY Two different types of .38 Spl ammunition - 158gr RNL , and 148gr midrange Wadcutters . Numerous shooters independently discovered -* Hey these Wadcutters are more pleasant to shoot than 158 RNL , and these Wadcutters seem to be at least as effective on Bad Guys or Game as 158 RNL .*

But being at least as good as 158gr RNL is a pretty low bar , exceeded by most modern defensive ammo . And if recoil is paramount , there are other .38 rounds that kick less .

******************

After all that pontificating , some bottom line for people in OP's circumstance -

Unless your domestic circumstances are very unique , or you have substantial physical and medical issues - Your starting point in large 4 inch revolver should be .38 +P , in whichever of 6 or 10 best regarded Defense / Duty ammo . Take care to be aware of locations of your family members , try not to miss the BG . If you are really , really concerned about noise or absolute minimum wall penetration , are you concerned enough to get a different gun instead ?
 
well, as to a different gun...probly not. I shoot the ruger pretty well, and many home defense loads are available. not a huge collector guy, I have a s&w model 18 and the ruger, and thats probably what I'll have for good, being 68..today actually is my b'day..so any bad guys that may want to break in, assuming they get past my dogo argentine, will have to wonder what they may get shot with..
 
well, as to a different gun...probly not. I shoot the ruger pretty well, and many home defense loads are available. not a huge collector guy, I have a s&w model 18 and the ruger, and thats probably what I'll have for good, being 68..today actually is my b'day..so any bad guys that may want to break in, assuming they get past my dogo argentine, will have to wonder what they may get shot with..

Happy Birthday! I didn't recognize the Dogo Argentino breed and looked it up, very nice looking and probably fearsome to any intruder.
 
When and IF the time comes, you won't hear the report of the round going off the same way you do at the range.
 
thanks for the b'day wishes Alan, yes the Dogo is a good breed. Like many good dogs, very friendly but knows when to growl. And the bite is about 200lb per sq in. harder than a pit bulls- you do not want her on you I can guarantee it
 
Keep your home defense gun loaded with what you shoot most accurately and can do a fast follow up shot if needed .

Hits from a 38 target load w/ HBWC beat shooting holes in the sheetrocked walls and ceiling seven ways to Sunday .

The flat wadcutter nose cuts a full caliber hole , target load allows accuracy and fast follow up shot(s) .

Only hits count in self-defense ... misses injure innocents .

All that said ... my 38 specials , all are loaded with Wadcutter Loads .
Gary
 
I am leaning a bit towards the wadcutters, have only had them to the range a couple of times, but they are very accurate, not as loud as most, and make a pretty good hole..If I have the chance to test wadcutters and plus p loads side by side for penetration, that would probably make my decision..I would want the one with lesser penetration out of those 2, if anybody knows..
 
I think that you are fine with a any standard / generally accepted .38 or .38+P load. Speer Gold Dot, or the like in 125-158 gr. No need to use anything weird.

I fired off a .38 Spl from a snub, 125 gr. Federal Nyclad, in a walk-in closet one time. The previous post about "Eeeeeeee Street Band" is right on the money. It was sort of disorienting and both ears going "eeeeeeeeeeee" for hours. Felt it in my left ear for days. All good now.
 
When 16 years old on the back gravel road with my brother, I slamed on the brakes and turned off the motor.
On my side , up on a levie was a ground squirl, sitting up looking at us.

I got my 6" Ruger loaded with a rimfire .22 Magnum and let have it.

I remenber that shot to this day, being a metal inclosed Jeep with just my window rolled down !!

I am just very glad that I have not shot a large centerfire round in my house, as yet
and hope that I never will.
 
I once had to fire a 357 magnum in 4" barrel inside a home. My ears hurt for hours. I told that on another forum once then had to read a flaming response by one of their high post experts about how he'd fired everything up to 50 bmg with no hearing protection and it never damaged his ears. Evidently I was just a wimp.

I used 44 special for house gun for years later, but recently have been using a 158 grain jhp 38 special load for a home gun. I figure it's enough to do the job and the hearing I save could be my own :)
 
Once while hunting , I fired a 2.75in .44 Mag with Blue Dot handload , in an open field w/o ear protection . My ears rang for hours .
 
I have shot the +p speer golddots hollow point, and agree that they shoot very well and accurate. The hollow point is hollow..the Hornady +p shoots well also, and has the plastic bead in it. I was told ( by a range fly ha ha) that a shot from a speer will get you in trouble with the law, where the plastic bead in the Hornady makes it "legal" Anyone else hear this? of course, still no problem out of a wadcutter, legally anyhow..I'm in Jersey, btw.
 
...The hollow point is hollow..the Hornady +p shoots well also, and has the plastic bead in it. I was told ( by a range fly ha ha) that a shot from a speer will get you in trouble with the law, where the plastic bead in the Hornady makes it "legal" Anyone else hear this?..
Your being in New Jersey makes all the difference on this question; most places it's a non-issue. Because of NJ's unusual (to put it nicely) laws regarding ammunition usage and firearm ownership, strongly suggest you avail yourself to concrete sources on the laws in your state and locality, rather than forum chat.

A good CCW or armed self-defense course in your community should offer this coursework; a NJ-based attorney specializing in in the subject could walk you through, too.
 
I don't think wadcutters are good for defense. Perhaps use some 38 special JHP round that's from a large popular manufacturer.
You ain't gonna get much more expansion out of a 38 JHP than a wadcutter to make any difference. But if it makes you feel good then go for it. Tell me, why don't you feel wadcutters are good for defense?
 
I am leaning a bit towards the wadcutters, have only had them to the range a couple of times, but they are very accurate, not as loud as most, and make a pretty good hole..If I have the chance to test wadcutters and plus p loads side by side for penetration, that would probably make my decision..I would want the one with lesser penetration out of those 2, if anybody knows..
My thoughts exactly ... over penetration is not wanted and shooting inside a room is hard on the hearing .
I can tell you ... you don't hear the shots then ... they sound distant and muffled but later your hearing can wind up being damaged ... there is a LOT to be said for the 38 Target HBWC and having to fire inside a room .
Gary
 
I'm not so sure about your average swaged lead hollow base wadcutter, but I'm more positive about one of the cast, solid, wadcutters loaded up around 800 fps.
 
These ones are Fiocchi 148 gr LWC 800FPS out of a 6" barrel? mines only a 4.2 but it probably does not lose too much
 
You've never been in a "him or me" situation. Noise and collateral damage will be the very last thing on your mind. Excellent to plan ahead but there is never a one size fits all. I carry a 357 for coyotes, skunks, racoons, possums, dogs and whatever else thinks livestock means free lunch. Thirty minutes from help from the Sheriff even if I had time to touch the iPhone screen to dial. Can't talk about specs on ammo because I don't know, don't care, never bothered to learn. All I want is for whatever is out in front of me to stop moving when I pull the trigger. The S&W 357 satisfies my every need. Don't stop talking about specs on bullets, muzzle velocity, type of guns, etc. I carry a 357 because all of you discuss all the specs, such as barrel length, muzzle velocity and kinetic energy when the bullet impacts. But keep in mind the one reason one carries.
 
A few comments about noise and .357 Magnum self defense loads:

1) The decibel scale isn't linear. The report of a .38 Special will be about 156 dB while the report of a .357 Magnum will be about 164 dB. On the face of it it would seem that the .357 magnum is only about 5 percent louder. But that's not the case.

On the decibel scale the intensity of the sound energy doubles every 3 dB. With an 8 decibel difference, the .357 Magnum is about 2 and a half times louder than a .38 Special. That's a huge difference, and it's even more significant in a confined space.

2) Younger ears are generally more tolerant of experiencing loud gunshot noises without permanent damage than older ears. The effects are often also cumulative.

3) If you do have to fire a handgun or rifle indoors, it's a very good idea to see an ENT within 24 hours. The doctor will probably prescribe steroids and have you wear ear plugs 24/7 for a couple weeks to limit the damage and promote as much recovery as possible.

4) Most modern .357 Magnum ammo is loaded with slow burning (by pistol standards) colloidal ball powders as they are inexpensive, easy to produce and will produce higher maximum velocities in 4 to 6 inch barrels. However, those slow burning powder charges weigh about twice as much as faster burning powders and produce about 40% more recoil.

In a short 2 1/2" or 3" barrel the difference in velocity is minimal - on the order of about 25-50 fps, but still with about 40% more recoil.

5) A .38+P load works well in a short barrel revolver to gain the velocity otherwise lost in a short barrel. It helps give a short barrel .38 Special the velocity and terminal performance comparable to a 4" .38 Special.

6) Again in a short barrel, a low recoil .357 Magnum load using a faster burning powder will still be about 150 fps more velocity than a .38 +P load. That can be important when a hollow point design may need that extra velocity to ensure reliable expansion.
 
Well, as they say horses for courses. If I were shooting coyotes I would certainly load .357's in it. If it may have to go off inside and there are other options, a 357 is not good around here. it might also go thru 3 houses.
 
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