A sad truth I had to face this week (Optics)

Which is why I really kind of hate referring to them, as backup sights. They're really a primary sight. I always shoot and get used to my firearms without my optics, before putting any on. The advantage I had with both of my last builds, has been co-witness. Which aided greatly in showing my wife how to use the irons. My daughter actually prefers shooting her .22 without her scope.



It was one of the concerns I weighed... as I experience it with my Vortex Strikefire, which is the current optic on the gun. There is most definitely a tint/darkness to it.

This is the video that finally sold me on it. The torture test, some of the range test were nice... but this one finally gave a decent view thru the optic, starting at about the :55 mark. He shows it with it illuminated and not. I think the light transmission and clarity is pretty good with it, especially with him focusing on one of the darker portions of the roof, for most the time.

I'd sure like to know more about that little reflex he has mounted on it to. He just says, "no-name he's testing"... in other words, the next PA red dot.

Closer view of our Primary Arms 4x ACSS on an AK - YouTube


I think you'll be quite pleased and surprised in how nice PA's optics are. I have four optics from them and love all of them. Only had trouble with PA's clone of a Aim Point PRO. The LED admitter went out on me. However, PA's customer service is absolutely awesome. When I described the problem, they gave me a return merchandise authorization number. Once they received my sent back optic. They immediately got out a new one to me, which I received in two days. I recently bought a Holosun Micro Red Dot from PA. And this optic is suppose to compete with a Aim Point Micro (T1/H1). It has a 50K hour battery life, can be submerged to 100', with a 2 MOA dot. etc. So far, this optic is doing quite well. Due to it being made in china, it's about 2/3's the price of an Aim Point. However, the quality assurance seems to be of strict standards.

Please keep us advise in how your optic is performing. And if you truly like it. I would welcome a sincerely opinion. Since, I'm seriously considering the optic you just purchased. Well, good luck with the optic. And remember a bad day of shooting, is still better than doing something else...like work.

Respectfully submitted,
Dr. Rick S.
 
OK...thanks to all the GREAT input here I am on the horns of a delimma.

As y'all know from another thread I am accessorizing my M&P Sport for two jobs...home defense and killing deer out to 125-150 yards.

I THOUGHT I had decided on what I wanted to do...a Primary Arms Micro Dot with the quick release mount bundle, mounted at a 45 degree left offset and a Nikon P223 3x32 on the top rail.

Now this thread has me considering option 2, which will cost about the same but reduce the number of optics to one.

I could get the Primary Arms 4x Prism with ACSS reticle and mount it on the reciever rail. Considering this brings up 2 questions:

1. Is this a reasonable choice for home defense? 4x magnification seems a bit much when trying for fast target acquisition. Of course, at verty close, home defense distances a practiced shooter will be pointing as much or more tham aiming and looking for center mass hits, not precise groups, but still...

2. Is it possible to mount the PA4xACSS (or the Nikon P223 for that matter)high enough to allow the use of flip up BUIS in case of optic failure? Eye relief on both is 3.2 to 3.4 inches so they can be mounted far enough forward to allow the BUIS to flip up, but what about clearance under the sight for clear use of the irons?

4X is NOT good for HD/CQB IMHO.

If you want to use one rifle, get a red dot of some type that is the primary optic with a quality QD mount (Larue). Then have a scope on another quality QD mount that you can swap out if you want to do some longer range shooting.

I have a Eotec XPS 2 on a Larue mount that is my primary optic and its on the rifle 90% of the time if not more. I also have a Nikon 3-9 BDC on another Larue mount. I only use the scope for long range 300+ or precision shooting under 300. I have used the rifle to hunt, but where I live (midwest) I have almost never taken a deer over 100 yards, so the Eotech is all I really need.
 
Here's some pics. The first, is my Primary Arms MD-FGBII Micro Dot, mounted on my Mini-14. I do have experience with the company and its this excellent little red dot, why I went back to them. The 2nd is at our local range. Its a screen cap from a video, which is why I'm pointing out the poof of dirt. The 3rd, is a picture at one of the places we shoot. This is public land (yeah, we're still able to use some of it). The two pics are typical of the landscape for hundreds of miles around me. The populated areas are flat, with wide-open LOS. You get up into the hills and mountains, and even up at 4,000 feet, unless you're in the forest... you're going to be scoping out, at least 200 yds.

This is why I'm buying an ACOG-style 4x optic. For the 5.56/.223 cartridge, it is probably the best option, IMO for this landscape. The membership range, back up in the hills goes out to 550 yds (You can just see the 550 line, right in the top of the yellow circle). There isn't any place I shoot, that has range limited inside of 100 yds, except the pistol lanes at the membership range.

And the last photo... if I don't have good results with the 4x, or have need to switch to a 1x red dot... I can still do that to, with my Vortex Strikefire red dot only. :D
 

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Rick,

I'm curious about the Holosun. How does the lens coating of the Holosun compare to the green tint on the Primary Arms MicroDot? I've heard claims that the Holosun is considerably clearer.
 
If you want to use one rifle, get a red dot of some type that is the primary optic with a quality QD mount (Larue). Then have a scope on another quality QD mount that you can swap out if you want to do some longer range shooting.


This ^^^

Bhales, Imo you're trying to do too much with two very different optics.

QD mounts on each would only require a trip to the range to verify your zero, something you'd need to to anyway if you were going hunting.

It would also make the rifle easier to operate. Having to simply shoulder the weapon and look down the pipe during a HD situation like you would every other time shooting makes more sense to me than having to train with the offset buis.

Just my opinion. But I'd go with one optic for each situation if you're only going to have one rifle.
 
OK...thanks to all the GREAT input here I am on the horns of a delimma.

As y'all know from another thread I am accessorizing my M&P Sport for two jobs...home defense and killing deer out to 125-150 yards.

I THOUGHT I had decided on what I wanted to do...a Primary Arms Micro Dot with the quick release mount bundle, mounted at a 45 degree left offset and a Nikon P223 3x32 on the top rail.

Now this thread has me considering option 2, which will cost about the same but reduce the number of optics to one.

I could get the Primary Arms 4x Prism with ACSS reticle and mount it on the reciever rail. Considering this brings up 2 questions:

1. Is this a reasonable choice for home defense? 4x magnification seems a bit much when trying for fast target acquisition. Of course, at verty close, home defense distances a practiced shooter will be pointing as much or more tham aiming and looking for center mass hits, not precise groups, but still...

2. Is it possible to mount the PA4xACSS (or the Nikon P223 for that matter)high enough to allow the use of flip up BUIS in case of optic failure? Eye relief on both is 3.2 to 3.4 inches so they can be mounted far enough forward to allow the BUIS to flip up, but what about clearance under the sight for clear use of the irons?

Sounds like a 1-4x optic would be a nice fit.

I not a fan of multiple optics on a rifle, particularly those with fancy angled mounts dangling optics off the side of the handguard.
 
Sounds like a 1-4x optic would be a nice fit.

Your suggested BUDGET MINDED optic?

I not a fan of multiple optics on a rifle, particularly those with fancy angled mounts dangling optics off the side of the handguard.

I know...when I think about it it does sound like I'm junking up the rifle with too many doodads, but I'm trying to come up with a set it and forget setup for the two jobs I have for the rifle. Its becoming clear doing both with multiple optics would make things too complicated, which beings us back to the first question in this comment...your suggested optic?

You said a 1-4x. Do you think a 4x only is too much for HD, even using BAC aiming...something like the PA 4x ACSS?
 
There are so many budget ($200) 1-4x scopes that work well for ARs it's difficult to recommend. Here are a few. Some crosshair, BDC and dot configurations, illuminated and non illuminated.

Bushnell AR Optics Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm Drop Zone-223 BDC

Millett Tactical DMS Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm Illuminated Donut

Nikon M-223 Rifle Scope 1-4x 20mm BDC 600 Reticle Matte


Burris Fullfield TAC30 Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm 1/2 MOA

Vortex Crossfire II Rifle Scope 1-4x 24mm Matte

And Primary Arms makes some different 1-4 and 1-6 scopes.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-Rifle-Scopes-s/919.htm
 
Having a similar conversation with Marshall, the head honcho at PA. Guy showed up with a similar question... though he just wanted HD. Marshall told him, he would be happier with the 2.5x and that the reticle had been designed specifically for CQB.

I'm with the popular opinion here about mounting optics. There's just really no, do-all optic and I don't like a lot of stuff mounted on my gun. Makes it too heavy and too busy. I don't want to have to think that much, you know?

I am always going to at the minimum, require any optic, to be able to clear the irons. If its 1x, I prefer a co-witness. I would want the ability to remove anything quickly and use the irons, if need be, no matter what.

You can probably find a nice fixed magnification optic and red dot, for not much more, than the 4x ACSS.
 
A illuminated 1-4 power scope w/qd mount is the ideal optic for the ar15 platform in my opinion. My trijicon accupoint tr24-3g riding in a Bobro qd mount is by far the best optic set up I've ever owned. I'm currently looking for a more economical choice for my plinking rifle. I've looked through a lot of glass and will definitely say that in the under $500 range there's only a few I'd spend my money on. Leupold,Zeiss,Vortex or Nikon. I had the chance to check out the vortex crossfire ii 1-4 w/illuminated reticle the other day and was pretty impressed at the clarity for a $250 scope. Its worth taking a look at.
 
Love the Trijicon chevron. If I ever go with magnification on an AR that's what it will be.
 
Optics

As an alternative to the Primary Arms scope, I've been looking at the Burris AR-332, with 3x magnification, plus the ballistic CQ reticle. It's priced lower than the Primary Arms, but has a 2-year warranty. The Burris is made in China though, so I'm concerned that it may be designed as a "disposable", like other Chinese products. Does anyone else have experience with the Burris?
 
(LONG POST WITH PICS)

Woo hoo! FedEx showed up with my optic while I was running errands, so it was waiting for me when I got home. Did the unboxing ceremony (lol) and then setup the optic on my M&P.

Mounts nice, solid and relatively quick even with the OEM mount. There's a trick to the Vortex and PA mounts. A flat head, or similar will tighten them sufficiently, just tightening from one side of the nut. I've done it enough, to know it works.

Really impressed so far. Packaging (which means nothing) is nice. Build quality is excellent. In fact, they have stepped it up a bit, since whenever my micro dot was made. This one and I understand its necessarily bigger, but it still feels more solid all the way around. Everything feels tighter, like specs and tolerances were tightened up, in QC.

I've included a couple pics looking thru the optic, though no justice done. It is bright and clear. I just now, double/triple checked. I can not tell ANY difference in light transmission, between the naked eye and looking thru the optic. No "dingy" look. The image is crisp and clear, all the way out to the edges.

The laser-etched reticle is sharp. At first, I looked thru it and was thinking, "Oh dang... tiny!". Few more minutes with it, and it suddenly seemed, just about right. They really did their homework on designing this reticle. It feels very intuitive.

Eye-relief isn't bad... right where they say, just over 3". You start moving back and you're going to deal with the parallax and limited sight picture. But, it feels natural to be in that position, on the firearm... so it suits me fine. My hunting scope is way worse.

The powered reticle isn't as bright as I expected. I expected eye-ball scorching, bright laser light at setting 1. Heck, couldn't even see 1, thru my camera. You can see it with the naked eye, no problem... but its not obtrusive and I could see using it that way. Don't know if I will.

Pulled the mount screws out, put some locktite on and mounted it the whole thing, rearward as it would go. Mounts up very stable and at least feels like it could take a real beating.

Not sure about the caps. They're a pain in the rear-end to open/close. With the fine focus on the rear, when switching shooters, its inconvenient. I only put it on the front, because of the killflash and its not easy access to wipe down the glass. This will keep more dirt/dust off it.

Bonus! The killflash, fits my Vortex Strikefire perfectly! The only weird thing, is with the killflash, it makes the A2 sight look like distortion in the glass itself, until you realize what it is.

Major props to PA for making this optic happen. If it returns the results I hope for at the range tomorrow... Hell, I'm thinking about getting the 2.5x also (see, its not mod'ing my guns, that's a weakness... its bleeping optics!). No, not really... there's a bunch of other optics on my radar, but I am serious about the weakness. I setup my guns, how I like them... then I leave them like that. If I were to have a burning desire to really mod this further... I'd get a new gun (another weakness).

Hope you enjoy the feedback. I'll be sure to post operational impressions after range day, which will include plenty of shooting out to 550 yds... and hopefully come back with some pics.

4x Prism and Killflash
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Everything included in the box (minus the battery - and killflash)
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Very rugged build. Same finish on other PA optics, which hold up well to dings and scratches.
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Would like to see retaining straps for turret caps.
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Fine focus for the ACSS
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Solid mount and actually installs and uninstalls rather easily.
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Killflash installed
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Battery is included, CR2032. I am impressed with the quality/simplicity of this battery compartment. It isn't one of those ones, you'll unscrew the cap some day and pieces of it, will fall out (other than the battery).
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Nice machining and build for Made in China...
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Mounted view 1
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Mounted view 2
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Mounted view 3
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Final build w/ 4x Prism ACSS
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Oops... sight pictures. :D
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Got the scope out to the range yesterday.

(1st pic zoomed 4x)
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Was a long process, as it was packed. A bit upset, as last weekend one of the kids told me it was the best day to go. Ended up getting, pretty much stuck on a lane. Luckily, I got the last one, with shade.

This also means, zeroing is a pain in the ***, if you don't have a decent spotting scope (which I don't). You have to call for a line break, every time, walk down there, check your groups. I'm not a MOA shooter. Don't have any desire to be. My only interest is putting rounds on target... and if I have to shoot at something 1", to save my life.. well, I hope I get lucky. I'm more concerned with larger targets/things.

After a while, tiring of waiting between breaks and zeroing as well as I could at 50... I switched over to the last of the reactive targets I had. When I pulled up the optic, the first thing I noticed was the 8" target fit perfectly in the ACSS horseshoe. Was using a front rest and decided to just unload the last 3 magazines into it, as I wanted to move up to the hill. The only thing I'm lining up here, is the horseshoe around the target. Not really aiming at the center circle. Then it was on to the longer stuff.

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The hill is stocked with an assortment of IPSC steel silhouettes. Found the 18" x 30" plate at 400, put the reticle there and *DING* first shot. Every magazine, at least 9/10 on target (I usually have a stupid trigger pull in there - which is why there's only 19 I think, on that 2nd target).

There wasn't any wind at this time, so it was literally center it on the instersect at 400 and you would get a hit. Same thing with shorter distances.

At the 550 yd range (the top ridge in the pics), As there isn't a 550 mark, it took a little bit of adjustment. But, following my shots, it was easy to adjust. The hill makes a very good backdrop. You see every miss.

As I was winding things down, the wind started to kick up a bit. I had also setup with 62gr and was now shooting 55gr (btw, I joined the Reloading Club today. RCBS single-stage ordered). So I started getting a little push on my rounds. I moved the POA to the furthest left edge of the 400 line and *DING*. Shot after shot.

The range finder appears accurate, as it said the 18" x 30" was at 400 (but I already knew that). I really like the ACSS design. Its just easy to use. Doesn't take a lot of brain power, to put a shot where you want it, with a little wind thrown in, for good measure. As for the illumination, as has often been said by those that have it... its not really needed, unless its getting dark. It showed up fine, on everything I was shooting at. The above targets, I was using it illuminated, not like it makes a big difference though.

When I first set up the optic, I used Locktite on the optic/mount screws. I did not use any on the rail mount. The Primary Arms (and Vortex,btw) can be sufficiently tightened, on one edge and be tight enough. There will be an initial settling in adjustment... but after I tightened them up, after about 100 rnds, it held rock solid. Any type of strong flat edge, can remove one of these and put them on, in a flash.

Once zero was set... at least for the rest of the rounds I put down range, zero never changed. I'd take it off and put it back on, but I don't have a need to and this is exactly the way I wanted this rifle setup.

I know some people take issue with the mid-magnification fixed optics. They don't think they stack up well for CQB and you know, inside of 50 yds... I would agree with you. This isn't the best optic for that. As someone else said, the ACOG style optics are a "jack of all trades, master of none". Though, I kind of disagree with that. For the SW United States, which is a LOT of flat, wide-open land, even when you get into the elevations, in some states. Ranges are often far greater than 100 yds. 300 - 500 is not uncommon. Out in areas like our BLM shooting area, as far as you can see. This type of optic and sighting system, is perfect.

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Build quality, is excellent. I think this one is built a little better than my Micro Dot. Not a knock on the Micro... its just seems like they moved their QC up a notch. I'm not ever going to intentionally inflict damage on my optic, to see how tough it is... but, I can easily believe the torture tests, I've seen.

Glass clarity is awesome, all the way out to the edges. Very good light transmission. With both of those, I could not see any difference between naked eye viewing and looking thru the optic, besides the obvious magnification.

My only beef with the optic are the PA flip covers. My rear one, was a lot of wiggle in it, so you really have to pay attention getting it on and the front one is a PIA to close. I do like the knurled portion on the rear cap, so you can still easily use the fine adjust.

I think if you're looking for something that fits the bill, of being able to put rounds on target accurately, out to (in my case) 550 yds and don't want to spend the money on a Trijicon, you can't go wrong with this optic.
 
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Great review. Looks real good on the rifle too. Nice to hear the glass doesn't suffer the same dingy look like the one I got years ago.

"Ding" oh man... nothing like the sound of a bullet smacking steel. Puts a big ole smile on my face. :)
 
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