A sad truth I had to face this week (Optics)

[CrustyShellback]

Embarrassed to talk about it, because I've always taken pride in being able to shoot decent, despite my glasses. Qualified just fine in the military, dangit! Big deal, right? Well, because of my medical condition, it exacerbates the problem. My blood pressure will drop and they think the tear in the carotids restricts blood flow and then they think that causes my eyes to go screwy. Simple way to explain it. Rub your eyes hard for 10 seconds, then try to focus on anything. Imagine that, for 20 minutes to an hour... sometimes closing in, like a tunnel (dark) on the outside.

Enough about that @#$%. This is about optics/scopes. I only explain, because I can't afford for this firearm to be a Tacti-Toy Money Pit. If/when I get to do that, I would like to build from the ground up.

So I've got a couple other scopes in mind, but then I saw this. I'm already a Primary Arms fan, as I run one on my Mini-14. I've dealt with the company and know they stand behind their products. I believe they make a 2.5x version of this, which got rave reviews. Anyone have experience with this one?

Primary Arms 4X Compact Prism Scope

Thanks for any feedback!

 

[JaPes]

I'd be surprised if anyone here has experience with Primary Arms's version of an ACOG because it's still so new.

I'm following this thread because I'm curious too.

 

[bhayles]

OK...help the ignorant here. This is a sorta combination of 4x scope and red dot...right?

 

[CrustyShellback]

I'd be surprised if anyone here has experience with Primary Arms's version of an ACOG because it's still so new.

I'm following this thread because I'm curious too.

I believe the 2.5x has been out for a while and its been highly received/reviewed.

So I guess I could be a guinea pig.

OK...help the ignorant here. This is a sorta combination of 4x scope and red dot...right?

Not really. The Prism has a laser etched horseshoe reticle, which can be illuminated. You use the larger horseshoe for CQB and the inner horseshoe, plus the range/hash marks for longer range. Its a pretty cool concept actually, the way you use them. They're made primarily for POA at like 18" wide targets (about the width of a torso), which is how you guesstimate range also.

They're not the greatest for CQB, but if you can acquire and switch to dominant/aiming eye without the need to squint/think about it too much, its not that big an issue. They're strongest suit is the ability to put bullets on target(s) at multiple ranges, very quickly.

 

[bhayles]

Well dangit...with the 4x I was hoping for some magnification. I'm on a tight budget and am wanting a red dot or similar for HD and a 3 or 4x scope for deer. I'm leaning toward the PA micro dot/mount combo plus a Nikon 223 4x32...thought this might be a good substitute for both for about the same total price.

Oh well...

 

[CrustyShellback]

Well dangit...with the 4x I was hoping for some magnification. I'm on a tight budget and am wanting a red dot or similar for HD and a 3 or 4x scope for deer. I'm leaning toward the PA micro dot/mount combo plus a Nikon 223 4x32...thought this might be a good substitute for both for about the same total price.

Oh well...

IMO, 4x is about perfect for the 5.56/.223. That's good enough to recognize/distinguish targets, out to any effective range.

Attached a pic of the reticle for you to see. When illuminated, it looks like a red dot. You don't need to, run the red though, unless its a low light situation (or if you prefer it that way).

More than that, I think is useless inside 100 yds.

You should check it out. It's not a normal crosshair reticle. It's made, specifically for combat.

Here's a pics of the reticle. When you turn it on, yeah... it looks kind of like a red dot, so I guess it is, kind of a hybrid.

 

[CrustyShellback]

Well JaPes... I guess I'll have to give you feedback. The more I thought about it, the more I realized, I was delaying the inevitable. I'd end up frustrated and range days would go sour. Every time we go out shooting, I'd like to shoot my .308, just for the optics... but with the price of ammo, it rarely goes to the range. I start getting a little frazzled shooting at the 300+. I have to grab my binoculars, find the target... make a mental marker, then go back to 1x searching. Sure, I can see it once I can pick it out, but that's a lot of wasted time.

I am surrounded for hundreds of miles, by desert and mountain ranges, that both frequently present clear LOS shots, 400/500+ yds. It just makes sense and is a good magnification for the 5.56/.223.

So I bought it this morning, they supposedly shipped it out this morning to. I expect I'll have it Tuesday or Wednesday. Pics as soon as I get it.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Looks like a winner to me.

4x is perfect for target identification. The separate ranging reticle for two-legged critters sure takes the thinking out of it and should make things fast too. Weight shows 16.2oz and that's with the flat top mount? Just a 2oz difference from the Bushnell AR332. What's not to like? I bet PA will sell quite a few of these.

I'm guessing the glass will be a bit dingy for a 4x due to the illumination. I wish they would sell these type units without illumination. I have the first version 4x compact prismatic scope PA sold. Been working fine for the past three or four years.

Looking forward to the review.

 

[CrustyShellback]

I'm guessing the glass will be a bit dingy for a 4x due to the illumination. I wish they would sell these type units without illumination. I have the first version 4x compact prismatic scope PA sold. Been working fine for the past three or four years

Interesting you bring this up. Every time I hear the guys at PA doing the review, they state they like to run it without the illumination. I saw another person state that Trijicon's patent is about to run into the area, where others can start utilizing/selling their versions. Though, I haven't any idea. when that is. But, at this point I would rather see the money go into the glass, than into something I might rarely use.

Though, I do like, that the option is there. If forbid, something bad were to happen, however and the poop goes to Hades in a handbasket, after hitting the fan... EMP is a strong possibility.

Oops... there went all those non-magnified, fancy red dot optics.

Options and covering bases. I hope I have the same success you've had with yours and the success I have with my little 2 MOA micro dot. That's a heck of a little optic.

 

[bhayles]

Oops... there went all those non-magnified, fancy red dot optics.

One more reason to be able to shoot irons WELL before bothering to learn to use anything else.

 

[CrustyShellback]

One more reason to be able to shoot irons WELL before bothering to learn to use anything else.

Which is why I really kind of hate referring to them, as backup sights. They're really a primary sight. I always shoot and get used to my firearms without my optics, before putting any on. The advantage I had with both of my last builds, has been co-witness. Which aided greatly in showing my wife how to use the irons. My daughter actually prefers shooting her .22 without her scope.

This is why I would prefer to have a non-illuminted version.

It was one of the concerns I weighed... as I experience it with my Vortex Strikefire, which is the current optic on the gun. There is most definitely a tint/darkness to it.

This is the video that finally sold me on it. The torture test, some of the range test were nice... but this one finally gave a decent view thru the optic, starting at about the :55 mark. He shows it with it illuminated and not. I think the light transmission and clarity is pretty good with it, especially with him focusing on one of the darker portions of the roof, for most the time.

I'd sure like to know more about that little reflex he has mounted on it to. He just says, "no-name he's testing"... in other words, the next PA red dot.

Closer view of our Primary Arms 4x ACSS on an AK - YouTube

 

[OmpDog]

Crusty- I am in pretty much the same boat (excuse the pun from another old shellback-a bubblehead type) with my vision headed downhill from my younger days. So I am very interested in your findings. This sounds like a scope that I am interested in, so thanks in advance for your research.

 

[CrustyShellback]

Crusty- I am in pretty much the same boat (excuse the pun from another old shellback-a bubblehead type) with my vision headed downhill from my younger days. So I am very interested in your findings. This sounds like a scope that I am interested in, so thanks in advance for your research.

A bubblehead, eh. Though, on the same team... I guess you could say we were your adversary (in training). I spent all my time on small boys. Frigates, sub-hunters.

I almost became a Sonar Tech, but my recruiter was a Fire Control Tech (extinct rating), asked me... "do you want to listen to *ping* all day long?" and he had a point.

So I became a Fire Controlman. LOL! '88 - '93

 

[POWinCA]

I looked at one of these two days ago. I did not like the reticule, but if you do then PA is as good as any other for the price. I own two PA RDS, but no magnified scopes.

I much prefer my 3.5x ACOG, but obviously it is much more expensive. If you have to have magnification, get the PA and save up for an ACOG or other quality scope later. BTW, I hate the 4x ACOG which is a shame because they are so compact. Eye relief sucks.

I have a Vism 1.1-4 x 24 that really isnt that bad. I got an NcStar QD rail attachment for it.

Some Leupold sights are coming into money reach at Cabelas. Take a good look at Redfield. Im buying a .22 rimfire scope by them that looks amazing for less than 200.

 

[SGT_Lindy]

What is your goal/purpose for the weapon?

Personally I do not like magnified optics for CQB. I run a Eotech and hit 8 inch steel plates out to 200 yards (supported). Out to 300 full size IDPA steel. I am not trying for pinpoint accuracy at those longer ranges, just hits on steel.

Magnification IMHO should be for precision shooting under 300 yards or long range shooting 300+ yards.

I am not a big fan of 1 optic does it all. They usually are OK at most things and not great at anything.

 

[CrustyShellback]

I live CA. Big, wide-open spaces, even in the mountains (though, I'm most often in the basins) typical shooting distances would be at least 100 yds and often out to several hundred yds. All my years in this state, the only time I'm shooting under 50yds, is indoors, or at Gun Ranges.

I have a 5.56/.223 that is setup with a 1x red dot on it. It shoots rails, out to 200 yds without much effort and further with the effort. I have a .308 with a 4 x 12 on it, that is setup and does shoot considerably further.

With my health condition, my eyesight can sometimes go a little screwy. I can focus, but its distorted. Its difficult for me to isolate targets, with any kind of clutter.

I've tried 2x and 3x multipliers and they were kind of close, but just not quite. I like the view thru my hunting scope, on 4x and can easily shoot thru it, with both eyes open on that magnification. Just made sense.

Not getting rid of the Vortex and they swap out, fast and easy with pretty good zeros. Just more options.

 

[bhayles]

OK...thanks to all the GREAT input here I am on the horns of a delimma.

As y'all know from another thread I am accessorizing my M&P Sport for two jobs...home defense and killing deer out to 125-150 yards.

I THOUGHT I had decided on what I wanted to do...a Primary Arms Micro Dot with the quick release mount bundle, mounted at a 45 degree left offset and a Nikon P223 3x32 on the top rail.

Now this thread has me considering option 2, which will cost about the same but reduce the number of optics to one.

I could get the Primary Arms 4x Prism with ACSS reticle and mount it on the reciever rail. Considering this brings up 2 questions:

1. Is this a reasonable choice for home defense? 4x magnification seems a bit much when trying for fast target acquisition. Of course, at verty close, home defense distances a practiced shooter will be pointing as much or more tham aiming and looking for center mass hits, not precise groups, but still...

2. Is it possible to mount the PA4xACSS (or the Nikon P223 for that matter)high enough to allow the use of flip up BUIS in case of optic failure? Eye relief on both is 3.2 to 3.4 inches so they can be mounted far enough forward to allow the BUIS to flip up, but what about clearance under the sight for clear use of the irons?

 

[CrustyShellback]

I don't think an ACOG style of optic would be your best option for just HD, but then you say you want to hunt with it to.

The ACOG was designed to try and be the do-it-all optic. They wanted to design a rugged magnified optic, that could put rounds on target, with reasonable accuracy, at distance. Yet, it could still be utilized in CQB using the "Bindon Aiming Concept", which takes practice and some people either just give up on, or can't do it. I can do it... at the range (lol). However, I've never practiced it for quick sight acquisition and engagement. I assume this is going to take some more practice. But, part of the reason, I got it.

With the 3" eye relief, whatever you mount, is going to be sitting right over your BUIS (and you want to make sure the mounts/optic you get clear it). That's why I would have to have the ability to remove any magnified optics quickly.

EDIT: I just read this on another forum and the description fits, for the ACOG... "Jack of all trades, master of none."

 

[bhayles]

EDIT: I just read this on another forum and the description fits, for the ACOG... "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Touche.

I don't think an ACOG style of optic would be your best option for just HD, but then you say you want to hunt with it to.

The ACOG was designed to try and be the do-it-all optic. They wanted to design a rugged magnified optic, that could put rounds on target, with reasonable accuracy, at distance. Yet, it could still be utilized in CQB using the "Bindon Aiming Concept", which takes practice and some people either just give up on, or can't do it. I can do it... at the range (lol). However, I've never practiced it for quick sight acquisition and engagement. I assume this is going to take some more practice. But, part of the reason, I got it.

With the 3" eye relief, whatever you mount, is going to be sitting right over your BUIS (and you want to make sure the mounts/optic you get clear it). That's why I would have to have the ability to remove any magnified optics quickly.

OK...I'm assuming from this that setting the ACOG style sight high enough to clear irons isn't viable, so...

What is your opinion of the Primary Arms micro dot angled off to the left at 45 degrees and the Nikon P 223on the rail? Same issue...cannot be mounted high so irons work below it?

In case you can't tell, I'd really like a set it and forget it way to accomplish my goals, but if it really is an impossible quest, so be it.

 

[CrustyShellback]

Depends on where I was going to mount the red dot.

If I were going to put a small red dot on my magnified optic, or its mount, I would only go with something like a very small reflex, such as the Burris Fastfire II.

If I had a quad rail, I would probably do a scout mount up front, then yeah... I'd put something like the PA micro dot up there. Love the one I have on my Mini.

Not my setup, nor picture, but here's one idea.

 

[Dr Rick]

Which is why I really kind of hate referring to them, as backup sights. They're really a primary sight. I always shoot and get used to my firearms without my optics, before putting any on. The advantage I had with both of my last builds, has been co-witness. Which aided greatly in showing my wife how to use the irons. My daughter actually prefers shooting her .22 without her scope.



It was one of the concerns I weighed... as I experience it with my Vortex Strikefire, which is the current optic on the gun. There is most definitely a tint/darkness to it.

This is the video that finally sold me on it. The torture test, some of the range test were nice... but this one finally gave a decent view thru the optic, starting at about the :55 mark. He shows it with it illuminated and not. I think the light transmission and clarity is pretty good with it, especially with him focusing on one of the darker portions of the roof, for most the time.

I'd sure like to know more about that little reflex he has mounted on it to. He just says, "no-name he's testing"... in other words, the next PA red dot.

Closer view of our Primary Arms 4x ACSS on an AK - YouTube

I think you'll be quite pleased and surprised in how nice PA's optics are. I have four optics from them and love all of them. Only had trouble with PA's clone of a Aim Point PRO. The LED admitter went out on me. However, PA's customer service is absolutely awesome. When I described the problem, they gave me a return merchandise authorization number. Once they received my sent back optic. They immediately got out a new one to me, which I received in two days. I recently bought a Holosun Micro Red Dot from PA. And this optic is suppose to compete with a Aim Point Micro (T1/H1). It has a 50K hour battery life, can be submerged to 100', with a 2 MOA dot. etc. So far, this optic is doing quite well. Due to it being made in china, it's about 2/3's the price of an Aim Point. However, the quality assurance seems to be of strict standards.

Please keep us advise in how your optic is performing. And if you truly like it. I would welcome a sincerely opinion. Since, I'm seriously considering the optic you just purchased. Well, good luck with the optic. And remember a bad day of shooting, is still better than doing something else...like work.

Respectfully submitted,
Dr. Rick S.

 

[SGT_Lindy]

OK...thanks to all the GREAT input here I am on the horns of a delimma.

As y'all know from another thread I am accessorizing my M&P Sport for two jobs...home defense and killing deer out to 125-150 yards.

I THOUGHT I had decided on what I wanted to do...a Primary Arms Micro Dot with the quick release mount bundle, mounted at a 45 degree left offset and a Nikon P223 3x32 on the top rail.

Now this thread has me considering option 2, which will cost about the same but reduce the number of optics to one.

I could get the Primary Arms 4x Prism with ACSS reticle and mount it on the reciever rail. Considering this brings up 2 questions:

1. Is this a reasonable choice for home defense? 4x magnification seems a bit much when trying for fast target acquisition. Of course, at verty close, home defense distances a practiced shooter will be pointing as much or more tham aiming and looking for center mass hits, not precise groups, but still...

2. Is it possible to mount the PA4xACSS (or the Nikon P223 for that matter)high enough to allow the use of flip up BUIS in case of optic failure? Eye relief on both is 3.2 to 3.4 inches so they can be mounted far enough forward to allow the BUIS to flip up, but what about clearance under the sight for clear use of the irons?

4X is NOT good for HD/CQB IMHO.

If you want to use one rifle, get a red dot of some type that is the primary optic with a quality QD mount (Larue). Then have a scope on another quality QD mount that you can swap out if you want to do some longer range shooting.

I have a Eotec XPS 2 on a Larue mount that is my primary optic and its on the rifle 90% of the time if not more. I also have a Nikon 3-9 BDC on another Larue mount. I only use the scope for long range 300+ or precision shooting under 300. I have used the rifle to hunt, but where I live (midwest) I have almost never taken a deer over 100 yards, so the Eotech is all I really need.

 

[CrustyShellback]

Here's some pics. The first, is my Primary Arms MD-FGBII Micro Dot, mounted on my Mini-14. I do have experience with the company and its this excellent little red dot, why I went back to them. The 2nd is at our local range. Its a screen cap from a video, which is why I'm pointing out the poof of dirt. The 3rd, is a picture at one of the places we shoot. This is public land (yeah, we're still able to use some of it). The two pics are typical of the landscape for hundreds of miles around me. The populated areas are flat, with wide-open LOS. You get up into the hills and mountains, and even up at 4,000 feet, unless you're in the forest... you're going to be scoping out, at least 200 yds.

This is why I'm buying an ACOG-style 4x optic. For the 5.56/.223 cartridge, it is probably the best option, IMO for this landscape. The membership range, back up in the hills goes out to 550 yds (You can just see the 550 line, right in the top of the yellow circle). There isn't any place I shoot, that has range limited inside of 100 yds, except the pistol lanes at the membership range.

And the last photo... if I don't have good results with the 4x, or have need to switch to a 1x red dot... I can still do that to, with my Vortex Strikefire red dot only.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Rick,

I'm curious about the Holosun. How does the lens coating of the Holosun compare to the green tint on the Primary Arms MicroDot? I've heard claims that the Holosun is considerably clearer.

 

[Chew]

If you want to use one rifle, get a red dot of some type that is the primary optic with a quality QD mount (Larue). Then have a scope on another quality QD mount that you can swap out if you want to do some longer range shooting.

This ^^^

Bhales, Imo you're trying to do too much with two very different optics.

QD mounts on each would only require a trip to the range to verify your zero, something you'd need to to anyway if you were going hunting.

It would also make the rifle easier to operate. Having to simply shoulder the weapon and look down the pipe during a HD situation like you would every other time shooting makes more sense to me than having to train with the offset buis.

Just my opinion. But I'd go with one optic for each situation if you're only going to have one rifle.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

OK...thanks to all the GREAT input here I am on the horns of a delimma.

As y'all know from another thread I am accessorizing my M&P Sport for two jobs...home defense and killing deer out to 125-150 yards.

I THOUGHT I had decided on what I wanted to do...a Primary Arms Micro Dot with the quick release mount bundle, mounted at a 45 degree left offset and a Nikon P223 3x32 on the top rail.

Now this thread has me considering option 2, which will cost about the same but reduce the number of optics to one.

I could get the Primary Arms 4x Prism with ACSS reticle and mount it on the reciever rail. Considering this brings up 2 questions:

1. Is this a reasonable choice for home defense? 4x magnification seems a bit much when trying for fast target acquisition. Of course, at verty close, home defense distances a practiced shooter will be pointing as much or more tham aiming and looking for center mass hits, not precise groups, but still...

2. Is it possible to mount the PA4xACSS (or the Nikon P223 for that matter)high enough to allow the use of flip up BUIS in case of optic failure? Eye relief on both is 3.2 to 3.4 inches so they can be mounted far enough forward to allow the BUIS to flip up, but what about clearance under the sight for clear use of the irons?

Sounds like a 1-4x optic would be a nice fit.

I not a fan of multiple optics on a rifle, particularly those with fancy angled mounts dangling optics off the side of the handguard.

 

[bhayles]

Sounds like a 1-4x optic would be a nice fit.

Your suggested BUDGET MINDED optic?

I not a fan of multiple optics on a rifle, particularly those with fancy angled mounts dangling optics off the side of the handguard.

I know...when I think about it it does sound like I'm junking up the rifle with too many doodads, but I'm trying to come up with a set it and forget setup for the two jobs I have for the rifle. Its becoming clear doing both with multiple optics would make things too complicated, which beings us back to the first question in this comment...your suggested optic?

You said a 1-4x. Do you think a 4x only is too much for HD, even using BAC aiming...something like the PA 4x ACSS?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

There are so many budget ($200) 1-4x scopes that work well for ARs it's difficult to recommend. Here are a few. Some crosshair, BDC and dot configurations, illuminated and non illuminated.

Bushnell AR Optics Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm Drop Zone-223 BDC

Millett Tactical DMS Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm Illuminated Donut

Nikon M-223 Rifle Scope 1-4x 20mm BDC 600 Reticle Matte


Burris Fullfield TAC30 Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 1-4x 24mm 1/2 MOA

Vortex Crossfire II Rifle Scope 1-4x 24mm Matte

And Primary Arms makes some different 1-4 and 1-6 scopes.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-Rifle-Scopes-s/919.htm

 

[CrustyShellback]

Having a similar conversation with Marshall, the head honcho at PA. Guy showed up with a similar question... though he just wanted HD. Marshall told him, he would be happier with the 2.5x and that the reticle had been designed specifically for CQB.

I'm with the popular opinion here about mounting optics. There's just really no, do-all optic and I don't like a lot of stuff mounted on my gun. Makes it too heavy and too busy. I don't want to have to think that much, you know?

I am always going to at the minimum, require any optic, to be able to clear the irons. If its 1x, I prefer a co-witness. I would want the ability to remove anything quickly and use the irons, if need be, no matter what.

You can probably find a nice fixed magnification optic and red dot, for not much more, than the 4x ACSS.

 

[red dragon]

A illuminated 1-4 power scope w/qd mount is the ideal optic for the ar15 platform in my opinion. My trijicon accupoint tr24-3g riding in a Bobro qd mount is by far the best optic set up I've ever owned. I'm currently looking for a more economical choice for my plinking rifle. I've looked through a lot of glass and will definitely say that in the under $500 range there's only a few I'd spend my money on. Leupold,Zeiss,Vortex or Nikon. I had the chance to check out the vortex crossfire ii 1-4 w/illuminated reticle the other day and was pretty impressed at the clarity for a $250 scope. Its worth taking a look at.