All 4473s are registration forms

[heckinohio]

When your local gun shop guy hands you a 4473 to fill out, he makes a registration form out of it when he completes the last page where make, model, type & serial number are recorded. All this ends up in a national data base if & when he quits for whatever reason. You certainly dont think for one minute that the 4473s he submits on license surrender arent scrutinized & the information as to who bought what computerized???!!!. The compliance gal who was here when I told her I was surrendering my FFL had me to go through my books back to minit one & change any reference to a guns type that may confuse whomever was going to take that information from the forms.

My opinion...........

PJH

 

[ditrina]

'Jus wondering.. are there any facts that support your statement or are they truly an opinion..?

Thanks

 

[gtoppcop]

When the shop goes, they surrender the 4473s, the A&D logs and whatever else to the ATF's archives. Wiki the National Tracing Center. That should help answer some of the questions.

Here in California, as in other States like MA, IL, NY, CT, NJ and others, registration has long been a facet of owning firearms.

Yes, it's a slippery slope. There's already been some gun confiscations by the CA DOJ, under the guise of "safekeeping". Completely warrantless confiscation in most cases. I believe Ginny Simone did some reportage on it.

The US Government knows more about you than you do in most cases. It's not hard for them to determine what you have and how much...

 

[SMSgt]

That 357 revolver I bought years ago has probably been sold a dozen times since. Good luck tracing that puppy from my paperwork.

 

[RobzGuns]

I guess it's actually a good thing that all my guns were lost in that infamous boating accident.

 

[Road Rat]

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???

Don't even get started on the multi-millions that were available before this silly form was started!!!

It would cost more than the current HMFWIC could come up with.

 

[ClayCow]

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???

Don't even get started on the multi-millions that were available before this silly form was started!!!

It would cost more than the current HMFWIC could come up with.

Its going digital now

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I guess it's actually a good thing that all my guns were lost in that infamous boating accident.

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

 

[BC38]

Its going digital now

It still has to get into the database somehow. They can scan the forms, but due to poor copy quality and variances in hand writing there isn't an OCR program in the world that will accurately translate all those hand written forms into searchable text. Sure its all in the digitized archives, as scanned images that have to be read by HUMANS to find specific info.

The only way to reliably digitize all the data into a searchable format is to hand-enter all the info. As others have already said, the BATF doesn't have the manpower - or the resources to hire the manpower - to even begin to tackle that.

 

[ClayCow]

It still has to get into the database somehow. They can scan the forms, but due to poor copy quality and variances in hand writing there isn't an OCR program in the world that will accurately translate all those hand written forms into searchable text. Sure its all in the digitized archives, as scanned images that have to be read by HUMANS to find specific info.

The only way to reliably digitize all the data into a searchable format is to hand-enter all the info. As others have already said, the BATF doesn't have the manpower - or the resources to hire the manpower - to even begin to tackle that.

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

 

[BC38]

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

Oh, yeah, they have a federal agent assigned to every gun forum in the country - and multiple ones on busy sites like this one. And they are really intensely interested in you and me and him, and every word we type.

Come ON! How many employees do you think the ATF has? Sure, if they have some reason to go after you they can dig back into server backups and find everything you posted, but what makes you think that anything the average person says or does interests the feds enough for them to devote that kind of resources to any of us average smoes?

Not every citizen is being watched like they were Jason Bourne. Only those whose activities and online rhetoric warrant "special attention" get it.

 

[BC38]

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

The only thing that is done digitally (sometimes) is the NCICS check - and that is just my info to make sure I'm not a listed felon. No info about the gun being purchased as far as I was able to determine. And most of the time even that part is done verbally over the phone.

 

[ClayCow]

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

The only thing that is done digitally (sometimes) is the NCICS check - and that is just my info to make sure I'm not a listed felon. No info about the gun being purchased as far as I was able to determine. And most of the time even that part is done verbally over the phone.

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

 

[BC38]

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

Yes, but like I said, it is just YOUR identity info - no info about the gun. Heck, even your SSN is optional. They are just checking YOU against the list of convicted felons and prohibited persons. Not the gun. No info about the gunis even entered into it. And like I said, a lot of them are still done verbally with a phone call.

 

[ClayCow]

Yes, but like I said, it is just YOUR identity info - no info about the gun. Heck, even your SSN is optional. They are just checking YOU against the list of convicted felons and prohibited persons. Not the gun. No info about the gunis even entered into it. And like I said, a lot of them are still done verbally with a phone call.

The serial number of the gun is placed onto the 4473 isnt it? Also im not saying there is a database or anything, I could care less. Its also unmanageable with private sales and all. Im just stating its digital so it is easier to create a database if needed.

 

[RobzGuns]

Have fun explaining what you just posted, like when was the accident and did you file a police report, file a claim with your insurance company? Did you know filing a false statement with a police department or insurance company is a felony. You just make a public statement. You don't think that these sites aren't monitored?

 

[RobzGuns]

The NICS check is based off of the stuff you provide in 4473 isnt it? Its bern a while but Im pretty sure i did it digitally on base and at bass pro shops

The electronic NICS check is a 'closed' Two Step process. The information transmitted to NICS is only about the buyer, then the connection is closed. The Firearm information is added (offline) only AFTER the buyer is electronically cleared to purchase. Then a hard copy of the form is printed and kept by the FFL. NICS does NOT know what firearm is being purchased.

How do I know this? I needed to take a job at WM for a while and I worked in the Sporting Goods Dept. I did quite a few of these electronic NICS checks... Especially during the Holiday Season.

 

[BC38]

The serial number of the gun is placed onto the 4473 isnt it? Also im not saying there is a database or anything, I could care less. Its also unmanageable with private sales and all. Im just stating its digital so it is easier to create a database if needed.

Yes, it is on the 4473, and if they want to come inspect them as part of an investigation they can.

HOWEVER, the SN of the gun is NOT entered online during the NICS check - or given verbally if the check is done by phone call. I've sat and watched/listened to it being done. Only your identity info is given. Period. Nothing about the gun is given to NICS - not the serial number, not even the make or model of the gun.

That info is all on the 4473 form, BUT the form stays with your LGS unless and until they go out of business and then their records are turned over the the ATF - who does not have the resources to digitize or enter them into a database.

When they pick them up they may review them to ensure the info is clear - but only in order to be able to go back to them for information in the unlikely event one of them becomes part of an investigation at some point in the future. They just don't have the manpower to input all the data off those MILLIONS of hand-written forms into some Big Brother database somewhere. With tens of thousands of gun sales completed every day, they just don't have the resources.

 

[ClayCow]

Gotcha. Understood. But im pointing out that now with the digital system it will not require a human and simply a program to process it all if life were to ever go that way.

I understand you might point out that it is closed, but that computer is hooked up to the internet and whether push or pull, someone can get it.

 

[k22fan]

Where exactly would this be? I've bought three or four guns from FFLs this year and for every single one the FFL and I filled out a paper 4473 form.

[...]

Cabelas. I saw one customer provided a paper 4473. I presumed he insisted on paper or no sale. Cabelas routinely has customers fill out a 4473 on computers.

I'm not sure if the Chinese hack Cabelas' computers in real time but I'll bet they could if they wanted to.

In Washington and, as previously posted, in many other states, it hardly matters if some US agency snatches the info. As of this year all modern guns including muzzle loaders made since 1898 and regardless of their age all cartridge guns for which ammo is still sold must be transferred through an FFL then eventually entered into Washington State's computer. I say "eventually" only because before the new law took affect the state was about one and a half years behind getting handguns entered. If a federal agent wants to know what's in the state's computer all he has to do is ask.