All 4473s are registration forms

BC38 said:
... Several folks have given reasonable explanations and examples why this is extremely unlikely. Yet some people, with no supporting evidence and in the face of every reasonable argument against it, continue to insist these conspiracy theories are facts.

Why is that?
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Because life is boring and conspiracy theories keep it interesting.:D
 
k22fan said:
In Washington and, as previously posted, in many other states, it hardly matters if some US agency snatches the info. As of this year all modern guns including muzzle loaders made since 1898 and regardless of their age all cartridge guns for which ammo is still sold must be transferred through an FFL then eventually entered into Washington State's computer. I say "eventually" only because before the new law took affect the state was about one and a half years behind getting handguns entered.
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Do you have any references to substantiate this? Everything I've been able to find says the records retention period is 20 days BY LAW.
 
pharmer said:
Here's one:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-...ved=0CEEQ6AEwBWoVChMIy47lgq7wxwIVxh0eCh0T9ALq
Pay special attention to pages 11-13 on this one.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...54.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG9Rqxkq9TBkBkSvKqPpiHD51_M8g
Oh yeah, and I do enjoy stirring "it" up. Joe
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Then you are going to have to do better than that.

First off both of these links are dealing ONLY with the records sent in by FFL license holders who have gone out of business or surrendered their license. They have NOTHING to do with current FFL holders and their sales. So they are a very small portion of the overall records.

Second your first link only talks about the paper records being put on microfiche - which is a scanned image of the piece of paper. That is basically just reducing the space needed to store the records. Microfiche are not searchable digital records.

Lastly your second link states that they have created an INDEX of the serial numbers from the forms to allow them to locate the microfiche with the scanned copy of the form for that specific serial number. Again, this is not a searchable digital database. Only an index of the photographed pages.

Essentially what is described at your links is a photographic version of a file cabinet full of papers with digital "labels" on the drawers to help them figure out which "drawer" to look in.

They cannot punch a serial number into a computer and pull up your name as the owner of the firearm. All they can do is use the serial number to look up the form IF the gun was sold by an FFL that has gone out of business and surrendered their records. NONE of the 4473 forms from currently active FFL holders are included in this repository.
 
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I see the error of my ways The .gov will be trusted by myself till the end of my days. I have seen the light. I can't wait to complete my first computerized 4473 since none of it will ever be stored anywhere. Joe
 
pharmer said:
I see the error of my ways The .gov will be trusted by myself till the end of my days. I have seen the light. I can't wait to complete my first computerized 4473 since none of it will ever be stored anywhere. Joe
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No one said - or even suggested - any of that. I don't trust the government - or anyone in it - any further than I can throw them. Obviously we must always remain vigilant in safeguarding the freedoms we still have or else we'll loose them.

But distorting the facts, fearmongering, conspiracy theories, and hyperbole aren't the way to do it. Going off half-cocked on these wild diatribes that are so easy to debunk just makes us look like a bunch of Roseanna Roseanna Dana impersonators and reactionaries who don't know what we're talking about.

Instead of wasting energy getting all outraged and jumping up and down over inaccurate statements and incorrect information, fighting the bogey men and tilting at windmills, how about we get outraged and try to put that energy to work dealing with and fighting something real instead? Like the unconstitutional anti-2nd amendment laws that really are on the books in so many states.
 
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BC38 said:
Do you have any references to substantiate this? Everything I've been able to find says the records retention period is 20 days BY LAW.
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So that it is clear for the other members I want to restate that we are talking about Washington State law. You can obtain a copy of the list of handguns you purchased at FFLs in Washington from the Department of Licensing (DOL) business license people. First you download the form. Here is a direct link: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/training/652012.pdf Next take the completed form to your local police department. Your local police check your I.D. then fax it to the Department of Licensing. I forget what the fee is or even if there is a fee. While you wait for the list to arrive I'd keep a good eye on your mailbox. I don't think you'd want mail thieves snatching the list.

The list will not include recent purchases because DOL lags behind getting the info entered. For out of staters I should reiterate that DOL does not obtain purchase information from the federal 4473 form. Washington State has had their own form for handgun purchases at FFLs for a long time. Unfortunately last November Washington voters passed an initiative that requires most gun transfers (not just sales) be processed by FFLs and treated the way only FFL handgun sales were previously.

Now BC38, that should establish that Washington is not destroying purchase records within 20 days. You might also find it interesting that police officers can see your purchase history on their computer screen during a traffic stop. That option was made available to them primarily for circumstances more likely to be dangerous than a speeding ticket. For example while driving to a domestic violence complaint they can learn residents of the home have purchased guns from FFLs. Depending on individual department policy and what they say to their dispatcher they will not necessarily see your purchase history at a traffic stop but they always see that you have a concealed pistol license it you have one.
 
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k22fan said:
So that it is clear for the other members I want to restate that we are talking about Washington State law. You can obtain a copy of the list of handguns you purchased at FFLs in Washington from the Department of Licensing (DOL) business license people. First you download the form. Here is a direct link: http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/training/652012.pdf Next take the completed form to your local police department. Your local police check your I.D. then fax it to the Department of Licensing. I forget what the fee is or even if there is a fee. While you wait for the list to arrive I'd keep a good eye on your mailbox. I don't think you'd want mail thieves snatching the list.

The list will not include recent purchases because DOL lags behind getting the info entered. For out of staters I should reiterate that DOL does not obtain purchase information from the federal 4473 form. Washington State has had their own form for handgun purchases at FFLs for a long time. Unfortunately last November Washington voters passed an initiative that requires most gun transfers (not just sales) be processed by FFLs and treated the way only FFL handgun sales were previously.

Now BC38, that should establish that Washington is not destroying purchase records within 20 days. You might also find it interesting that police officers can see your purchase history on their computer screen during a traffic stop. That option was made available to them primarily for circumstances more likely to be dangerous than a speeding ticket. For example while driving to a domestic violence complaint they can learn residents of the home have purchased guns from FFLs. Depending on individual department policy and what they say to their dispatcher they will not necessarily see your purchase history at a traffic stop but they always see that you have a concealed pistol license it you have one.
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Truth be tols this is states rights in action. I can see the good and bad in this. I just wonder if it has helped save LEO lives, something hard to enumerate and quantify.
 
BC38 said:
When they pick them up they may review them to ensure the info is clear - but only in order to be able to go back to them for information in the unlikely event one of them becomes part of an investigation at some point in the future. They just don't have the manpower to input all the data off those MILLIONS of hand-written forms into some Big Brother database somewhere. With tens of thousands of gun sales completed every day, they just don't have the resources.
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There's about 20 million background checks per year. Not much of a data entry crew would be needed to simply enter date, your name, ss# or other id#, gun manufacturer and ser# from a 4473. A few seconds each. A small contractor crew could do it easy.

Heck, the ATF processes over a million NFA applications per year which are WAY more time consuming with only 30 examiners total.

The notion that entering data from purchase records is just too big of a project for the Feds or state is laughable. To the country, I see no reason not to suspect the database(s) already exist. And according to what K22Fan posted above, it looks like your state does.
 
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ChattanoogaPhil said:
There's about 20 million background checks per year. Not much of a data entry crew would be needed to simply enter date, your name, ss# or other id#, gun manufacturer and ser# from a 4473. A few seconds each. A small contractor crew could do it easy.

Heck, the ATF processes over a million NFA applications per year which are WAY more time consuming with only 30 examiners total.

The notion that entering data from purchase records is just too big of a project for the Feds or state is laughable. To the country, I see no reason not to suspect the database(s) already exist. And according to what K22Fan posted above, it looks like your state does.
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IF the information about the weapon were included in the back ground check, then sure that would be do-able. I mean 20 million a year is only 115 per hour, 8 hours a day 365 days a year, right? BUT as several people have already pointed out several times, there is no detailed info about the gun (like the SN) involved or transmitted during a background check. Only info about the BUYER.

Also that 20 million per year is only guns sold through FFLs - not private sales. Even in states like WA where the law says all sales have to go through an FFL with a background check, if there is no enforcement (which there currently isn't) then there are still a lot of private sales that aren't recorded. I'd wager that here in WA way over half of all private sales are still not going through the "required" FFL transfer. And very few states even HAVE an un-enforceable law that says private sales need to go through an FFL.

Lastly, that 20 million per year is just NEW sales - that doesn't do anything to get ANY of the older 4473 forms into digital format or anything resembling a database.

I still say that in practical terms, unless and until they pass a law that makes registration not only legal, but mandatory, trying to build an illegal registration database - and keep it secret - is, in effect, impossible.
 
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BC38 said:
IF the information about the weapon were included in the back ground check, then sure that would be do-able. I mean 20 million a year is only 115 per hour, 8 hours a day 365 days a year, right? BUT as several people have already pointed out several times, there is no detailed info about the gun (like the SN) involved or transmitted during a background check. Only info about the BUYER.

Also that 20 million per year is only guns sold through FFLs - not private sales. Even in states like WA where the law says all sales have to go through an FFL with a background check, if there is no enforcement (which there currently isn't) then there are still a lot of private sales that aren't recorded. I'd wager that here in WA way over half of all private sales are still not going through the "required" FFL transfer. And very few states even HAVE an un-enforceable law that says private sales need to go through an FFL.

Lastly, that 20 million per year is just NEW sales - that doesn't do anything to get ANY of the older 4473 forms into digital format or anything resembling a database.

I still say that in practical terms, unless and until they pass a law that makes registration not only legal, but mandatory, trying to build an illegal registration database - and keep it secret - is, in effect, impossible.
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If you read the OP, the subject was about FFls turning over their info to the feds upon closing. As far as collecting data for ongoing sales, it sounds like your state is doing it according to the above post and link.

You keep saying that no gun information is ever provided during a background check, just buyer info. I can tell you that in Tennessee, which is a point of contact state, the FFL must provide the following information to TBI to get an approval number on the background check.

The federal firearms license number of the dealer;
The business name of the dealer;
The place of transfer;
The name of the person making the transfer;
The make, model, caliber and manufacturer’s number of the firearm being transferred;
The name, gender, race, and date of birth of the purchaser;
The social security number of the purchaser, if one has been assigned; and
The type, issuer and identification number of the identification presented by the purchaser; and
Receive a unique approval number for the transfer from TBI and record this number on the firearm transaction record.

Tennessee law says that TBI is supposed to destroy records linking a specific firearm to a specific person. Yeah sure...

FFL system/background checks are the root of all gun control evil.

--------------------

For me it's not something I can escape anyway... I own NFA toys and have a handgun carry permit. I'm in the state and fed databases forever.
 
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ChattanoogaPhil said:
If you read the OP, the subject was about FFls turning over their info to the feds upon closing. As far as collecting data for ongoing sales, it sounds like your state is doing it according to the above post and link.

You keep saying that no gun information is ever provided during a background check, just buyer info. I can tell you that in Tennessee, which is a point of contact state, the FFL must provide the following information to TBI to get an approval number on the background check.

The federal firearms license number of the dealer;
The business name of the dealer;
The place of transfer;
The name of the person making the transfer;
The make, model, caliber and manufacturer’s number of the firearm being transferred;
The name, gender, race, and date of birth of the purchaser;
The social security number of the purchaser, if one has been assigned; and
The type, issuer and identification number of the identification presented by the purchaser; and
Receive a unique approval number for the transfer from TBI and record this number on the firearm transaction record.

Tennessee law says that TBI is supposed to destroy records linking a specific firearm to a specific person. Yeah sure...

FFL system/background checks are the root of all gun control evil.

--------------------

For me it's not something I can escape anyway... I own NFA toys and have a handgun carry permit. I'm in the state and fed databases forever.
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Sorry, I should have been more specific.

The OP is indeed talking about the 4473 - a federal government form, and my comments were in reference to the NICS check - which is also a federal requirement - and does not include specific info about the gun.

You are correct that some STATES have gone above and beyond that. But that still does not put ALL 4473 forms nationwide into some kind of national "registration" database - any more than Washington's handgun laws affect yours in Tennessee.

And being on the NFA database and a registered CCW holder STILL doesn't tell the feds anything about your non-NFA firearms. Only what NFA items you have and that you MAY be carrying a gun.

Like I said, instead of going off on mis-directed diatribes about a FEDERAL form and FEDERAL background check somehow being tied together (they aren't) to create a supposed "secret" ILLEGAL federal database (that nobody has any evidence of) we should be devoting that energy to making sure Tennessee and Washington and all other states are following and not exceeding the reach of the laws that already exist. Not to mention working to get some of them overturned.
 
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BC38 said:
...

The OP is indeed talking about the 4473 - a federal government form, and my comments were in reference to the NICS check - which is also a federal requirement - and does not include specific info about the gun.

...
Like I said, instead of going off on mis-directed diatribes about a FEDERAL form and FEDERAL background check somehow being tied together (they aren't) ...
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Well, they are.

I call NICS with the 4473 in hand and answer the questions pertaining to name, place of birth, ethnicity, race, state of residence, type of firearm, and S.S. if provided. They in turn issue a transaction number that I fill in on line 21B as well as a disposition (proceed, delayed or denied.).

So, the FBI has a listing of these transaction numbers and they could theoretically be married to the 4473.
 
Knowing how government agency work and get along. I'll bet that NICS/FBI and they ATF don't exchange much information.

In this day and age many larger FFLs Bound Book is no longer a bound book but is a computerized searchable data base that is approved by the ATF. I assume if they go out of business they don't print that data base but data is just transferred to the ATF.

If the ATF wasn't keeping that information in a searchable form there wouldn't be much reason for them to collect the information from the former FFLs. They would just have FFL destroy that information.
 
BC38 said:
Like I said, instead of going off on mis-directed diatribes about a FEDERAL form and FEDERAL background check somehow being tied together (they aren't) to create a supposed "secret" ILLEGAL federal database (that nobody has any evidence of) we should be devoting that energy to making sure Tennessee and Washington and all other states are following and not exceeding the reach of the laws that already exist. Not to mention working to get some of them overturned.
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Well it doesn't have to be a global event for the feds to collect info on all your guns. A guy deals with a LGS for 20 years. They go out of business..... all his purchase records are now in the hands of the Feds.

The OP is making a real observation. The only thing he is suggesting is that the feds aren't likely to just toss all the info in a pile but rather put on computer. Hardly a tin foil hat suggestion, particularly after dust-up over the feds storing billions of our cell phone records.

I agree on overturning unconstitutional law. The entire FFL system is unconstitutional as far as I'm concerned. Until the GCA 1968 is repealed, government at all levels will continue to collect information on our gun purchases.
 
Cell phone records are digital to begin with. Its one thing to collect digital data, its another to convert from hard copy to digital and make it searchable.
 
Could just be gocernment red tape that no one has bothered to change and people are just gettung up in a uproar about nothing.
 
BC38 said:
It still has to get into the database somehow. They can scan the forms, but due to poor copy quality and variances in hand writing there isn't an OCR program in the world that will accurately translate all those hand written forms into searchable text. Sure its all in the digitized archives, as scanned images that have to be read by HUMANS to find specific info.

The only way to reliably digitize all the data into a searchable format is to hand-enter all the info. As others have already said, the BATF doesn't have the manpower - or the resources to hire the manpower - to even begin to tackle that.
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Well, y'all better get in touch with your respective super reliable honest representatives and get some more money allocated so they can. Perhaps along the lines of the TSA hiring guidelines... I mean, after all...it's for the children.

Anyone who believes in the anonymity of the private citizen is living under a rock, or in Ted Kozinskis little house.
 
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