Am I crimping too much?

[FloridaFlier]

I haven't loaded any .45 ACP in quite a while, but set up my Dillon 550 for a friend coming into town, who wanted to load .45's.
Stage 1 gives me beautiful cases, that all fit perfectly into the case sizing gauge. The finished product (after Stage 4) sometimes does not fit all the way down into the sizing gauge, although it will cycle in the 1911. Not quite the confidence builder I wanted to show him.
I was using mixed brass, which I know can make a difference, but should not make that much of a difference, should it?
I was loading 230gr lead round nose, and I miked a sample of the bullets; all at .452, which is correct, I believe. The finished cartridges were all 1.260, which seems right to me (my books say the max is 1.275).
This all suggests to me that it should be a nice final product, but they show a slight bulge part way down the case, at about the bottom of the bullet, and as mentioned, sometimes do not fit all the way into the sizing gauge.
My first thought was I might be over crimping, which might lead to the slight case deformation below the bullet, but after backing off on the crimp, the deformation is still there. Now I'm back to basics. Could I be over-compressing in stage 1 (resizing), under-belling (or over belling) the case in stage 2, so the bullet seats slightly angled?
If a picture would help with the diagnosis, I will try to get one, but I am not sure my camera can focus well enough that close, so I am hoping that my explanation is adequate for you to understand the problem.
At this point, I can't even decide which stage is causing the problem, so it is difficult to effect a cure, as any adjustment will effect the operations preformed by the other three stages.
Experienced reloaders, I need some advice!! Thanks in advance.

 

[Rule3]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

You are discussing two separate issues. Crimping and OAL.

There will be a little bulge from the bullet.

All the crimp on a 45 ACP should do is smooth out the flare made to seat the bullet. The flare should be just barely enough to start the bullet, if it fits seats in there real easy it is a bit too much.

Your crimp at the case mouth should be more like .470.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I keep getting bashed in the head for advocating the use of the Lee FCD for auto loader ammo. But I use it and swear by it for auto loader ammo. Please note that I keep saying auto loader ammo and not revolver ammo.

 

[Dragon88]

Try belling a little more. You will always see a slight bulge from the bullet, it's actually a good thing because it means you have good case to bullet tension. However, the bulge should be evenly distributed around the finished round. If it is bulging out badly on one side, that usually means the bullets are going in crooked. Expanding a bit more may help you.

 

[moxie]

Actually, you've described perfect ammo. That bulge or wasp-waist feature below the bullet results from the sizer die reducing the case to a diameter a hair smaller than the bullet itself. The result is case tension that holds the bullet. The taper crimp doesn't hold the bullet, it simply removes the "bell." Regarding the finished round not fitting in the sizer die...it's not supposed to. Regarding your OAL of 1.260...that's perfect! Try the "plunk test" which consists of dropping the round in the barrel chamber (gun disassembled). It should drop in freely, often with a "plunk" sound. There is also a max cartridge gauge sold by Midway that I recommend that you can check your rounds with:
L.E. Wilson Max Cartridge Gage 45 ACP - MidwayUSA

 

[Rule3]

I keep getting bashed in the head for advocating the use of the Lee FCD for auto loader ammo. But I use it and swear by it for auto loader ammo. Please note that I keep saying auto loader ammo and not revolver ammo.

I will not bash you. I use it on all my ammo as the crimping die. If it fixes something else along the way fine. I do not feel it doing a final resizing on many rounds just the crimp.
On one of my very early reloading of 357 mag I had seated the bullet a bit to deep and was crimping with the seating die. They would not fit the cylinders properly. I ran them through the FCD and it smoothed them out and they fit fine after that. I learned my lesson that when using the seating die to crimp it forces the bullet in just a bit more, so it was flaring on the cannelure.

 

[FloridaFlier]

Actually, you've described perfect ammo. That bulge or wasp-waist feature below the bullet results from the sizer die reducing the case to a diameter a hair smaller than the bullet itself. The result is case tension that holds the bullet. The taper crimp doesn't hold the bullet, it simply removes the "bell." Regarding the finished round not fitting in the sizer die...it's not supposed to. Regarding your OAL of 1.260...that's perfect! Try the "plunk test" which consists of dropping the round in the barrel chamber (gun disassembled). It should drop in freely, often with a "plunk" sound. There is also a max cartridge gauge sold by Midway that I recommend that you can check your rounds with:
L.E. Wilson Max Cartridge Gage 45 ACP - MidwayUSA

Private Message also sent to Moxie. I own two 1911's, broke both down and the ammo I am making passes the 'plink test', in that it seats nicely in the chamber of either barrel. I now have no understanding of what my sizing gage from Dillon does for me if it is something different than the sizing gage sold by Midway.
I took some more measurements; my loaded round measures .473 diameter from the rim to about the bottom of the bullet, which I can see, due to the indentation, or waistline, just below the bullet. Then the loaded cartridge slims slightly to .468 at the 'waisteline', then near the bottom of the case, it is back up to .4725 Also, the waistline is even on all sides, the bullet is not being pushed in crooked.
Is this about right? I guess I got bothered because factory ammo has no waistline, and loaded factory ammo fits in my Dillon sizing gage, but my loaded ammo often does not.

 

[Jellybean]

Your measurements are within specs for a loaded .45 acp, so I'm going to guess the problem is you are not seating your bullets deep enough for the particular bullet you are using.

Your "sizing gauge" is basically a "no go" gauge for ammunition, telling you they are out of spec. somewhere.

 

[FloridaFlier]

Your measurements are within specs for a loaded .45 acp, so I'm going to guess the problem is you are not seating your bullets deep enough for the particular bullet you are using.

Your "sizing gauge" is basically a "no go" gauge for ammunition, telling you they are out of spec. somewhere.

Well, that was and is my guess too. When I load .38's, every round drops fully into my Dillon .38 sizing gage. When I load .45 ACP, they do not, but they do drop fully into the chamber of my 1911 barrels. With a 230gr. LRN bullet, and a COAL of 1.260, I think I am deep enough into the case, however. If those specs are good, is it possible that my Dillon sizing gage is telling me optimum, but not maximum cartridge size?

 

[jepp2]

Your Dillon sizing gauge should be cut to the SAAMI standard for your cartridge. Same thing for the Wilson gage. I've included the link for the dimensions for reference:

Saami 45 auto cartridge

Your chambers are just cut above the "minimum" chamber size.

 

[Jellybean]

I've never used any cartridge gauges, but I think they are cut to maximum cartridge dimensions. The proper range for acceptable barrel dimensions will start just above the maximum cartridge size.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I have a couple of case gauges. I got them when I bought boxes of other stuff. Maybe one is still on loan from a friend, can't remember!

Since you aren't planning on shooting your ammo out of the gauge, why not use the only gauge that matters? YOUR barrel/chamber!

Remove the barrel from the gun OR make up dummy rounds without primers to test revolvers. Then, you can store those in a safe place and use them to setup your dies the next time you run that caliber.

I have done that over and over again.

FWIW

 

[fredj338]

I keep getting bashed in the head for advocating the use of the Lee FCD for auto loader ammo. But I use it and swear by it for auto loader ammo. Please note that I keep saying auto loader ammo and not revolver ammo.

For good reason. The LFCD is an ingenious solution to a on existent problems IMO. Set the dies up right, no one needs a LFCD to make accurate reliable ammo. Geeze, we all managed for decades prior to lee's little invention. Can it give you a makeup for setting your dies wrong or poor technique? Sure, but needed, nope.
I reload 45acp using Dillon dies, no issues, even in match chambers. As noted, try a bit more flare. Make sure the right seating stem is in place; RN for RN & flat nose for SWC ot JHP.
Like SC says, try your bbl as a final gage to set your dies. The manuf case gages tell you if the cartridge is the correct OA dia, but doesn't tell you if the OAL is correct for your bullet & bbl. There is no rifling to engage so it can't. Case gages are great for checking a batch AFTER you use the bbl to set the dies up. Also, a round will sometimes not go into the gage because there is a tiny knick on the rim that never touches the chamber of the bbl.

 

[EricInAZ]

If you need to hire a mohel to remedy the problem, you may be using too much crimp.

As already mentioned, in semiauto ammo, you only need to remove the case flare, so if you see a noticeable crimp, then it's too much.

Nevertheless, after nearly 40 years of quality reloading, I recently tried a Lee Factory Crimp Die & found that I prefer it over the crimp setting in my seating die. I now use one for my .45 and also for.38 ammo, and from what I see, it gives much more consistent results, batch to batch on my brass.

 

[Jellybean]

Since you aren't planning on shooting your ammo out of the gauge, why not use the only gauge that matters? YOUR barrel/chamber!

Cartridge gauges are intended to help you make ammunition that will shoot out of any firearm so chambered. If you are only intending to shoot them out of yours, all you have to do is check them in your firearms for fit. One of the reasons many people load their own is because they want to custom tailor their ammo and get away from the one-size-fits-all factory stuff.

The main purpose of the Lee FCD is to make people that don't have a proper concept of handloading think they do. If your ammunition doesn't work without them, then there is a problem somewhere that should be fixed properly. Is that bashing?

 

[Rule3]

The main purpose of the Lee FCD is to make people that don't have a proper concept of handloading think they do. If your ammunition doesn't work without them, then there is a problem somewhere that should be fixed properly. Is that bashing?

No, it's not bashing it's just deliberately trying to provoke something. There are thousands of satisfied LFCD owners, The reviews from people buying them are favorable. It's just another tool, so some like it some don't. If it was Blue , it would be the greatest tool ever invented It allows crimping as a separate step from seating and crimping together. It does not post resize or reform many cartridges, it acts primarily as a crimp die.
As far as the statement that "people who use it do not have a proper concept of handloading", then I guess the thousands of lemmings are all wrong.

 

[Maximumbob54]

If I load lead bullet ammo then I like to have the case mouth with a little extra bell to it so it doesn't chew on the lead. With jacketed or plated this isn't such an issue. To then close that extra lip on the brass with the bullet seating die can indeed be done. And a good tape crimp can be sealed against the bullet. But I like to load several different shapes of .45 ACP bullets. Setting the seating die to close that flair and set that taper chrimp is a pain in the backside. I could just buy a die for each bullet profile and leave it or I could just set the depth for said bullet and then use the Lee FCD to close it. I don't know why it works so well, it just does. Before, I would have to load a small lot and see if they would feed, fire, and eject properly each time. They would all go into the gauge and they would all set just right into the chamber of the barrel. But then hyjinx would ensue at the range. Enter the Lee FCD. No more problems with changing bullet profile. I think I have a pretty good concept of reloading, thank you.

 

[running iron]

Well, that was and is my guess too. When I load .38's, every round drops fully into my Dillon .38 sizing gage. When I load .45 ACP, they do not, but they do drop fully into the chamber of my 1911 barrels. With a 230gr. LRN bullet, and a COAL of 1.260, I think I am deep enough into the case, however. If those specs are good, is it possible that my Dillon sizing gage is telling me optimum, but not maximum cartridge size?

The trouble with the Dillon gauge is that it measures Minimum specs while the Wilson case gauge measures Maximum specs. I have had lots of reloads not pass through the Dillon but were good to shoot. The Wilson rejects only the really bad ones that may need a little tweaking. I like the dillion for the initial set up with the dies, but not for checking reloads with used brass. This only applies to my 45 auto rounds, the only auto i reload and the only one that seems to care.

 

[Rule3]

But I like to load several different shapes of .45 ACP bullets. Setting the seating die to close that flair and set that taper chrimp is a pain in the backside. Enter the Lee FCD. No more problems with changing bullet profile.

I think this is the main advantage of the FCD. When changing bullets with different crimp locations if the seating die is used to crimp also, the whole die body must be adjusted in or out (loosen the lock ring) and then allow for about .055 inch for the bullet to move into the case and then crimp. With the FCD this pain and trial error is eliminated. All one needs to do is use the adjusting knob.

In addition if using a 4 hole turret, the press arm must be pulled to either go past the 4th hole or perform a function, so you might as well have that pull do something.

But the main advantage is being able to crimp as a separate step and making that step much easier to set up and control. The LFCD is also made (either roll or taper) so that a round can not be over crimped.

 

[FloridaFlier]

Thanks to all for the many fine inputs. To my way of thinking, this is the forum working exactly as originally envisioned. It's like I suddenly live next door to some serious reloaders.

To bring this to conclusion, I increased my belling slightly, my bullets are all going straight into the case. Then I started backing off on the crimp. Just a little, little more, tiny bit more, too much, the other way a bit (one RCH to be precise), and everything is lined up and fits the gauge. I talked to Dillon as well, who confirmed that their sizing gauge is a good start, but not the only measure that counts.

As an added bonus, I learned quite a bit about SAAMI specs and the expected slight waistline as the bullet is pushed into the case.

Thanks again to all for the help.