Another extractor removal gone bad

[BMCM]

Afternoon Gents,

Taking a little break from the 5906 project to tend to a couple other jobs...

Got this one in todays mail and thought to share with permission from the owner.

First a bit of data on extractor pins...
These are hardened 5/64 dowel pins of sorts, for the big guns ie 45/10mm the pins are 9/16 inch long and 1/2 for the smaller frame guns.

The pin bore, or the hole in the slide that houses the pin is an interference fit. That means it's smaller than the 5/64 pin diameter. In my experience, it's the portion of the pin bore above the extractor cut that's a tight fit whereas the portion below is bored to size. In most cases when I'm installing an extractor I am able to press the pin in by hand from below through the lower portion of the pin bore and the extractor before I need to take hammer & punch to drive it in completely.

In removing the pin, it is driven from the top down. First apply some quality penetrant such as Kroil, Seafoam DeepCreep, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, or a mix of 50/50 acetone and transmission fluid. And let it soak for a while. I will often wet that pin with Kroil and leave it be until the following day.

Use a starter punch to get the pin started moving downward. Once the pin budges loose you can switch to a longer pin punch to knock it out the rest of the way.

So, about this little mishap...
6904 slide undergoing refurbishment for a project. In removing the extractor a 5/64 punch was used at first. Well, that was the start of the error chain. With the punch being slightly larger than the pin bore, the hole deformed at the top thereby grabbing the pin even more firmly, then the pin began to deform.

Here's what we did to get it out...

The pin was badly deformed up top and somewhat less so below so I set the slide inverted atop a block of MIC6 and was able to get the pin to move a bit with a starter punch and hand maul.

Flip it back upright to have a look and that pin has a countersink head on it like a drywall screw No way in hell is that going to go through the pin bore...

What I think I'll do here is try driving that pin upwards some more then cut off the deformed segment.

Flipped it back over and beat on it some more until the pin just would not go any further. Pretty careful at this point too... recall the lower end of the pin is deformed as well so it was stopped at the pivot hole in the extractor. Can't force it any further for fear of breaking the extractor. This is as far as it will go...

Now over to the mill. I have a 1/8" carbide end mill in the collet and the slide resting on a couple parallels. Gonna go in there and carve that pin off near flush with the floor of that little pocket on the shoulder...

Like so...

Back over to my makeshift aluminum anvil for a few whacks and it's out

Everything was kinda dirty & oily plus that aluminum block while non-marring and all, tends to leave some residue on steel parts so into the sonic tank for a bit to clean it up...And ready to go home...

Only victims were one extractor pin and the sacrifice of a single valiant Starrett pin punch who will soon find a new life as a starter punch. (seems I go through a lot of these)

Cheers
Bill

 

[vigil617]

Mighty "fine" work there, Master Chief!

Your carbide end mill looks huge in that close-up photo, but when I think about how small it is, and how even smaller that hardened pin is, I realize what a light touch on the feed you needed to have. Worked like a charm in the hands of the right machinist, though!

Great pictures too!

 

[Doc1500]

Heat the punch up glowing red straighten it out then get it as hot as you possibly can and quench it in some oil. Just a thought.

 

[Trooper224]

I greatly enjoy your posts BMCM, I learn a lot from them. Appreciated.

 

[Old_Cop]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skill. I am also reminded that there is no substitute for the right tools.

 

[scooter123]

I've found that pin punches tend to be a bit Lawyered Up. In concernes about a punch shattering they are tempered a LOT softer than they really need to be. They are actually soft enough to be drilled with a Cobalt Drill.

Which is good news in a way. What I do is chuck up a damaged pin punch and drill and ream it so I can press in a Gage Pin of the desired diameter with a bit of red locktite. When you do that you get a pin punch that will not bend and I have never had one break. In addition the tips don't mushroom when you have to use a 22 ounce ball peen hammer to free up a stuck pin.

 

[Fastbolt]

...
Only victims were one extractor pin and the sacrifice of a single valiant Starrett pin punch who will soon find a new life as a starter punch. (seems I go through a lot of these)

Cheers
Bill

That's how you can tell if a S&W armorer has actually replaced some extractors in older model guns.

He doesn't just have that nail-set "starter" punch from the original armor tool kit, but has some "spare" starter punches made from Starrett pin punches once the tips are broken off at the beginning of the angle above the (formerly) straight pin shanks.

Nice save, BTW.

 

[Sevens]

I am fortunate in that I own two 745's. My first one was a Gunbroker purchase and I was over the moon when I won the auction and had it out for the first time.

Got through half a box of ammo when the extractor pin walked skyward and out of the slide, ejecting the ejector! My buddy actually spotted the ejector not far away on the ground, a miracle in itself. The pin and spring were lost.

It seems that a previous owner hogged out that "interference fit" and the proper pin is now free to travel up and out of the slide. Arrrrgh!

 

[rosewood]

Glad to know I am not the only one to bend or break a punch trying to drive one out. Some good tips on how to fix it now.

Thanks,

Rosewood

 

[BMCM]

It seems that a previous owner hogged out that "interference fit" and the proper pin is now free to travel up and out of the slide. Arrrrgh!

I have some repair pins for that if you still have the gun, happy to mail you one.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Fastbolt]

Glad to know I am not the only one to bend or break a punch trying to drive one out. Some good tips on how to fix it now.

Thanks,

Rosewood

The machining used to make the older 3rd gens could make for some tight pin holes. Especially on the top. We were told that as long as we could use the same extractor pin when replacing an extractor, it was best to keep the extractor pins oriented (top/bottom) so they could be installed in the same orientation, so the tighter end would go back in the tighter upper hole.

In the older 3rd gen armorer class tool kits they provided a tapered needle reamer for armorers to use if they needed to address any rough or burred extractor pin holes. We were warned to be careful in using them, though, to avoid hogging or wallowing out the bottom or upper hole.

I remember seeing an older early production .45 which had some very small metal slivers sticking up out from around the top of the extractor pin, trapped between the pin and the sides of the hole, from the pin having been pressed up into the hole without the machining slivers having been cleaned out. Ugly.

I've also seen a couple of slides damaged by someone having tried to hammer an extractor pin out of the slide by driving it upward (instead of downward), and beating the living hell out of the bottom hole, really wallowing it out by using the wrong size punch. One of the slides was damaged beyond repair. Even the top end of the set of holes was enlarged and ruined.

 

[Sevens]

I have some repair pins for that if you still have the gun, happy to mail you one.

Cheers
Bill

Appreciate that offer! I'm using an OEM pin that S&W sent to me.

I'm curious at what a "repair pin" would be — if the hole in the top of the slide is larger than the diameter of pin that is proper, using a larger pin would not allow the extractor to pivot freely, would it?

I have the idea in my head that a working solution in my situation is to thread the access hole in the top of the slide and place a small screw cap to close off the hole. Like a flush-fit hex head set screw kind of thing.

Now, every single person reading this can line up and laugh hysterically at me, but give me credit for my honesty at least. I've used a small rectangle of black duct tape to cover the hole. How well has this worked? About 2,000 rounds with no problems. It was simply a temporary band-aid until I figured out the best solution. And I haven't moved forward from that point.

Before anyone re-names me "BUBBA" it needs to be made clear that I did NOT cause this problem! I bought this problem. Lemonade from lemons, you know.

 

[JohnHL]

Brother Sevens, I realize you're not a tool maker, but here is a simple fix:

Remove the extractor pin.

Lay the pin on its side and hit the bottom end with a hammer, so as to distort it into an oval shape.

Re-insert the pin from bottom to top (like it should), and the widened, oval end of the pin will "bind" in the lower hole.

John

 

[BMCM]

Appreciate that offer! I'm using an OEM pin that S&W sent to me.

I'm curious at what a "repair pin" would be — if the hole in the top of the slide is larger than the diameter of pin that is proper, using a larger pin would not allow the extractor to pivot freely, would it?

Yes and no sort of...

You use a pin that will conform to the enlarged hole while still allowing the extractor to pivot freely. So long as the pin bore reamins smaller then the pivot hole in the extractor this pin will fix the problem...

5/64" heavy duty 420 stainless steel coil pin, shear strength rated at 800 pounds. I have them in 1/2" length and 9/16" for both the large frame guns and the smaller ones. They're made by Fabory in the Netherlands and I get them in bags of 100 from Grainger. Discussed in this thread... Unnecessarily pulling extractor - Just dont, this is why ... where one of these pins was installed to repair a 745 with a like problem... Had a short aftermarket dowel pin installed in a wallowed out pin bore.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Fastbolt]

Glad to know I am not the only one to bend or break a punch trying to drive one out. Some good tips on how to fix it now.

Thanks,

Rosewood

Nope. Not a small club.

FWIW, I noticed the potential for bending the 1/16" pin punches was noticeably reduced if there was inward pressure against the extractor, so the spring wasn't shoving against pin (as the spring pressure jumped from extractor pin to punch pin). I learned to be able to push against the extractor with a thumb, when doing the repair on a bench top/block instead of using a vise (for the slide).

 

[Fastbolt]

Brother Sevens, I realize you're not a tool maker, but here is a simple fix:

Remove the extractor pin.

Lay the pin on its side and hit the bottom end with a hammer, so as to distort it into an oval shape.

Re-insert the pin from bottom to top (like it should), and the widened, oval end of the pin will "bind" in the lower hole.

John

It was mentioned in a couple of the classes that some armorers had been successful in using a steel bench block and ball peen hammer to lightly "peen" (flatten) a bottom end of the original extractor pin.

 

[Fastbolt]

Yes and no sort of...

You use a pin that will conform to the enlarged hole while still allowing the extractor to pivot freely. So long as the pin bore reamins smaller then the pivot hole in the extractor this pin will fix the problem...

5/64" heavy duty 420 stainless steel coil pin, shear strength rated at 800 pounds. I have them in 1/2" length and 9/16" for both the large frame guns and the smaller ones. They're made by Fabory in the Netherlands and I get them in bags of 100 from Grainger. Discussed in this thread... Unnecessarily pulling extractor - Just dont, this is why ... where one of these pins was installed to repair a 745 with a like problem... Had a short aftermarket dowel pin installed in a wallowed out pin bore.

Cheers
Bill

One of the things I still kick myself for having procrastinated in doing was calling back to the factory, when the 3rd gen pistol repair was still in Springfield, and getting the sizes of the roll/coil pins that could be used if the solid extractor pins didn't work in a particular slide.

It was in my last class ('09) where we were told that the engineers had been working on using roll/coil pins in place of the solid pins, and if we were interested we could call back and get the sizes needed.

This was something I remember when the M&P 45 originally only used a roll pin for the extractor, and the other M&P's still used solid pins for a while.

Finally, they eventually transitioned to using roll pins for the extractor pins in the rest of the M&P pistols. That was a good thing, as the heavy presses that installed the original solid pins in the M&P's could make removing pins from older 3rd gen guns seem like a walk in the park.

 

[Fastbolt]

BTW, I went back and edited a previous post to further describe the needle reamer sold in older pistol armorer kits as having been a tapered needle reamer. The taper was very slight, but visible.




It was inserted from the bottom of the slide into the extractor pin hole, to keep the top part of the hole slightly narrower than the bottom part. The reamer typically didn't go in much farther than what allowed the tip to stick out the top hole a little.

By the time the TSW pistols were coming online, I didn't see the needle reamer listed in the parts kit. My impression was that it wasn't considered a necessary tool for field armorers anymore, like the extractor "flag" gauge. (No more burrs to be dressed inside some of the holes.)

The "flag" gauge was a thin Go/No-Go gauge that measured the small space behind the inside of the extractor hook and the breech face. There came a point when we were told in an armorer recert class that the engineers had decided that newer machining methods and equipment no longer made it necessary to check that dimension, and only the "bar" gauge was needed to fit an extractor. (The "bar" gauge checks the distance from the outer edge of the extractor hook to the opposite side breech face "shoulder", as the adjustment pad is filed to allow the extractor to move (pivot) inward.

 

[Fastbolt]

I forgot to post the pics in the above post, so if you don't see them, refresh the page ... Sigh.

 

[henry1089]

great thread/info

What a great thread, great information from all
quite helpful ....really enjoyed it