Another Jeff Cooper Thread

THE PILGRIM

THE PILGRIM

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the other day I stopped by NRA Whittington.
They have a small but well done Museum.
They probably try to do too much in a small space, probably reacting to the wishes of donors.
The Jeff Cooper display only has 2 guns.
One is 1911 and the other is one of his Scout Rifles.
It's probably the ugliest IMO of the scout rifles.
It's Steyr with a red stock. Like bright red stock.
Then it's got pictures ( decals?) on the stock.
I can't image Jeff Cooper actually liking something like that.
Do they have a gun for me? Absolutely!
I don't mean just an old expensive gun, they have a bunch of those.
I mean one that I really like.
Its a fully engraved 3 inch 624.
 
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I liked reading Coopers writing. Never met the man but he brought in a lot of good hours of learning. Reading his early stuff on guys like Weaver got me to buy my model 14 Smith. A better gun I could never find.
 
I read a lot of Col Coopers writings and always did want to meet him. Never did but he did sell me on the Scout rifle idea and I did purchase a Ruger GSR last year. Not a perfect rendition but close enough.
 
Seen him once. One of the gun magazines had a picture of him spotting my hits in one of the first silhouette revolver shoots about 1972 (?) in california. Somewhere I have that magazine packed away. I didnt do well, looked like a beached walrus shooting my 8 3/8" Nickle 29-2. Think it was a "Guns and ammo". Met Weaver too.
 
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He sure appeared to be a no nonsense type. Seems I read somewhere he was also a english professor? Somewhere I have a ancent book he wrote on "Defense Handguns." I probley bought that one in the mid/late 1950`s.
 
Jeff the Gent

I had some interaction with Mr. Cooper. When I published a book intended for armed store owners, (Varro Press) I wrote to Mr. Cooper, asking permission to use his lesson plan on color-code mindset. He graciously gave me permission to use his lesson with the proviso that I not change it. He got annoyed when writers tried to "improve" his lesson plan by adding a "Condition Black" or some other wrinkle.

Naturally, I followed his instructions exactly and I was thrilled to receive favorable comments from him when the book was published and I had sent his a complimentary copy.
 
zzzippper said:
We are not a fan. There is something pompously wrong with someone that speaks of himself in the third person.
Click to expand...

Not in the third person, but in the first person plural. Queen Victoria could get away with that - "We are not amused" - but she spoke for an empire. Cooper spoke only for himself and so yes, pompous is the word. :rolleyes:
 
Elmer Keith was also known to use the "editorial we". Did that make him pompus?

I understand how he felt about that "improving" his color code. I read something, just the other day, about how to carry the 1911.

Condition zero - loaded, chambered, cocked and off safe.
Condition one - cocked and locked on a hot chamber
Condition two - hammer down on a live one
Condition three - hammer down on an empty chamber
Condition four - hammer down on an empty chamber, no magazine in gun

Condition Zero? Condition Four? Where did that garbage come from?
 
Alpo said:
Elmer Keith was also known to use the "editorial we". Did that make him pompus?

I understand how he felt about that "improving" his color code. I read something, just the other day, about how to carry the 1911.

Condition zero - loaded, chambered, cocked and off safe.
Condition one - cocked and locked on a hot chamber
Condition two - hammer down on a live one
Condition three - hammer down on an empty chamber
Condition four - hammer down on an empty chamber, no magazine in gun

Condition Zero? Condition Four? Where did that garbage come from?
Click to expand...

Shouldn't there be a condition 1.5 in there - one in the chamber, hammer at half cock? ;)
 
zzzippper said:
We are not a fan. There is something pompously wrong with someone that speaks of himself in the third person.
Click to expand...

I didn't care for him because he always promoted the 1911.

Now if he had said a S&W Revolver, I might have changed my mind.
 
Tom K said:
Shouldn't there be a condition 1.5 in there - one in the chamber, hammer at half cock? ;)
Click to expand...

There is a condition 5

Loaded - hammer on half cock - live round in the chamber - leather thong around the grip safety to de-activate it.
No holster just crammed in the pants.






Texas Ranger Tales

http://sheriffjimwilson.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/texas_ranger_lo.jpgOne of the most interesting of the old-time Texas Rangers was Charles Edward "Charlie"Miller. Miller joined the Rangers in 1919 and retired in 1968, 49 years of service. During that time, due to Texas politics, Miller also served as a federal prohibition investigator and a Special Texas Ranger. But he will always be known for his Ranger service. Ranger captain A.Y. Allee once told me that Charlie Miller had killed 7 or 8 men in the line of duty and was justified in every case.


Mr. Miller was one of the first Rangers to see the value of the Colt 1911 pistol as a peace officer's weapon. However, Miller had a severe dislike for the grip safety on the pistol. His solution was to tied the grip safety down with a length of rawhide. He also carried his pistol with a round in the chamber and the hammer on half cock (a practice that is definitely not recommended). To make matters even more interesting, Miller disdained the use of a holster and generally just carried the .45 auto shoved down in the front of his pants. In later years, his big belly pretty well made this a concealed-carry technique.


One time, during a firearms training session, a Texas DPS instructor saw Miller's gun, with the tied down safety, and asked, "Mr. Miller, isn't that dangerous?" Miller quickly shot back, "Son, if the damned old thing wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be wearing it!"


One of my favorite Charlie Miller stories comes from a time that Miller shot it out with an outlaw down in the vega (river bottom) of the Rio Grande. They had hit each other and had both taken cover. Supposedly, Miller called over to the outlaw and said they were going to both lie there and bleed to death, so why didn't they just stand up and finish it like men. Miller shook his head and related, "And you know what? That damned fool stood up!"


Charlie Miller is a legend in the annals of the Texas Rangers. Like a lot of good peace officers, his gunfights never soured his disposition and friends across Texas were legion. Charlie Miller is buried in the Texas State cemetery, next to his long-time friend and commander, Col. Homer Garrison. A Texas legend; and he did it with a Colt 1911.



:eek: I knew Dan Combs (Oklahoma Highway Patrolman and Instructor) We competed against each other in PPC matches. He told me he crammed a loaded 1911 in his pants just above his zipper and it went off. He said he was the only one in the State of Oklahoma who had a .22 caliber pecker with a .45 caliber hole in it.





=
 
He had a few good ideas in his early days and from there it seemed he believed everything he thought must be brilliant.

I remember his instant predictions for failure of some autos that were introduced in the 1980s and none of those predictions bore out.

He was a big bore stuck in 1911.
 
I think he did a lot for defensive pistol shooting. I always enjoyed reading his stuff.....correction...."we" always enjoyed reading his stuff :D LOL

My favorite Cooper Quote...

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
 
I believe he had several good points to make but so do many on the stools at most bars. What I like most is his assertation that a 30--30 is a better assault rifle than an AR.
 
I Second the Motion

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Well, "We've" met him and he was the biggest most pompous full of himself alpha hotel that it has been "our" displeasure to meet. "We'll " leave it at that.......
Click to expand...

Thru the course of my being trained as a Firearms Instructor/Armorer/Competitor and then some special events I met and talked with Mr. Cooper several times. Every time I came away with less appreciation of the man than I had the previous meeting. I liken people like him as "grindstone personalities". I.E., every time one gets around them they make you just a little sore. My solution came to be was to just avoid him.

Yes, he contributed. Yes, he thought very highly of himself. Yes, some of his writings were very thought provoking. I could accept all those things in context, but I came to just not like him personally. ..... Big Cholla
 
mtgianni said:
I believe he had several good points to make but so do many on the stools at most bars. What I like most is his assertation that a 30--30 is a better assault rifle than an AR.
Click to expand...

His reasoning is that when it run out of ammo it made a heavier & handier club ?
 
Alpo said:
"editorial we"
Click to expand...

I remember in his "Random Thoughts" column stating that his use of "we" was due to him being an editor, those who had an issue with it were invited to go back to school. He was - Editor at large (whatever that is...) of G&A - this used to be standard formal usage for editors to refer to themselves - not sure if it still is.

As to him propagating the 1911 45, he wasn't the only one - weren't there more than a few hackles raised when the US Army chose a double action 9mm 30 years ago? Then again, many were instructors at Gunsite...:)
 
Always enjoyed his writings, and I am pleased that Combat Handguns reprints some of his columns. He wrote well, and while he was opinionated-who amongst us isn't-so were many of his fellow writers. I felt a personal sense of loss on his passing.
 
When I was 17 another high school student loaned me his copy of "Fighting Handguns". What the man said and how he said it made a big impression on me, then and now. He made you think, and that's a big deal.

I also like John Boyd's work, but I'll make up my own mind, thank you.
 
I use to love to read about anything Cooper wrote and I think he really had an impact on the shooting world. I remember when very few people had a high regard for the 9m/m and I bet a lot of those feelings were because of things Cooper said. He was such a good salesman he could convince people that if they didn't have an expenive Steyr Scout rifle they might as well give up. The truth is, about any .308 youth rifle with a low power variable scope would perform just as well.
 
I wrote him once asking his opinion of the Browning Hi-Power.
He wrote back but I can't remember what he said in his letter.
This was in the early 80's.

wyo-man
 
He mentioned it in passing in "Fighting Handguns", 1959. Something to the effect that he liked the ergonomics if you added a "speed safety", and that if made in .40 caliber it would be a pretty good gun. Needless to say he was not a fan of the 9 in the available loads back then...

That was a LONG time ago! Angie Dickinson had just come on the scene.
 
Once upon a time I used to read his articles, etc. Same as with Keith, Carmichael, O'Connor, Skelton and Milek. They are now all dead and gone. So is the world they once knew. Still, fun to read some of their stuff. Have a copy of Keith's little book on handguns and handloading by the bed and of course his "Hell I Was There" is nearby.

As to the practical everyday matters of shooting and hitting and what particular types of firearms to choose, some but not all of what they wrote still applies. It's like reading Wheelen or Sharp on rifles or Ackley on cartridges, the world has moved on. The same applies to handguns, etc. One day I will hopefully find and buy a 1974 Chevy Nova which I will then rebuild, paint. It will be close to the Nova of my teenaged years, the one I would have painted and fixed up if all my money hadn't been going for college expenses, books and my future wife. It will not be the biggest baddest thing on the road, but I will enjoy it. For a road trip, etc., I'll take the Toyota that is currently sitting in the driveway. It's about the same thing with firearms. I have a 1903-A3 that I had converted into a 1903-A4orgery... i.e., the 1903-A4 of the WWII era, the rifle that I have never had a dogs chance of owning. This year it will be my deer rifle as it is already my go to range/field rifle. Once I would have only carried a 03-A3 or M-1 Garand. For up close... maybe 100 yds., I still do. But in the woods/fields, one cannot be sure when the shot will be hard off the muzzle and when it will be down a power line, so I carry the 03-A4orgery. There are many better rifle designs available. Just about any modern sporter bolt-action rifle will produce better groups with less fiddling around. For what the 03-A4orgery ended up costing, a heavy barreled scoped rifle could have been bought. But, the 04orgery was what I wanted. The world has of course left such rifles behind. But, I, I look at that rifle and it speaks to me. What more reason does one need..
 
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