Apex kit really worth it?

[Incredible Me]

Guys,

I've just became a proud father of a 2nd hand M&P9, took a while for them to creap onto the market here, but I finally found one.

There are 2 things I want to do to it, trigger kit and sights.
First of the trigger, is the Apex kit really worth the money?

For me it's gonna cost about $200 (kit, shipping, importduties)

And would you advice the duty/carry kit or the competition kit?

(It's a range gun)

 

[OKFC05]

There are two opposite schools of thought on th M&P trigger.
1. If you come from 1911s, particularly competition models, then you MUST HAVE the APEX competition kit. If you really intend to do competition, be aware the particular FSS kit moves you from SSP to ESP or CDP in IDPA and moves you up from Production to Limited in USPSA.
2. If you come from revolvers as I do, and don't mind long 2 stage triggers, there is no need for the kit. If you want a lighter, smoother trigger, that can be had by judicious polishing and spring changes.

I skipped over the whole "buy a gun cheap and spend half the cost on modifications" by buying the 5" 9mm Pro and keeping it stock for IDPA/SSP and USPSA Production. The sights and trigger on it suit me just fine. The trigger settled down just over 4#, and smooth.

You pays your money and you makes your choices...

 

[Incredible Me]

Thanks for the reply. The Pro isn't available here, that the problem.
And most gunprices go times 2 before they go on the shelves here in Holland.

I use the gun in a Dutch competition where there are no rules for modifications, so that won't be a problem.

(and I come from shooting a CZ and a Glock)

 

[RobzGuns]

You wrote that the M&P9 you bought was Pre-Owned. If it was made prior to 2013, the Apex kit is well worth it. In 2013, S&W reportedly started using the same trigger as the Shield (much better), so if it was made earlier this Year (2013), the Apex Kit may not be necessary.
The final decision of course, depends on how the trigger feels to you.

 

[N4KVE]

You wrote that the M&P9 you bought was Pre-Owned. If it was made prior to 2013, the Apex kit is well worth it. In 2013, S&W reportedly started using the same trigger as the Shield (much better), so if it was made earlier this Year (2013), the Apex Kit may not be necessary.
The final decision of course, depends on how the trigger feels to you.

While I have read the above statement here several times, I actually E-mailed S&W twice to ask them this exact question, & how it pertains to my M&P40c built in 2009. Both times they said they use the same parts, & no improvements have been made. They also said if I purchased new trigger parts, they would be exactly the same as what's already in my gun. Was he lying to me? GARY

 

[forrestinmathews]

Thanks for the reply. The Pro isn't available here, that the problem.
And most gunprices go times 2 before they go on the shelves here in Holland.

I use the gun in a Dutch competition where there are no rules for modifications, so that won't be a problem.

(and I come from shooting a CZ and a Glock)

Get the Apex FSS then. Use the four pound trigger spring. If you are really feeling like polishing things you can use the two pound spring from the action enhancement kit. It just won't give as positive a reset. Don't forget to open the loop up on the disconnector to take out the pre travel. Feel free to PM with any questions.

 

[Mr. Satchmo]

Guys,

I've just became a proud father of a 2nd hand M&P9, took a while for them to creap onto the market here, but I finally found one.

There are 2 things I want to do to it, trigger kit and sights.
First of the trigger, is the Apex kit really worth the money?

For me it's gonna cost about $200 (kit, shipping, importduties)

And would you advice the duty/carry kit or the competition kit?

(It's a range gun)

The apex parts were worth every cent that I spent on them, the dynamics of the gun changed completely and I am very happy with the performance. I saved money by buying a polymer trigger and I really
Liked how it felt. The overall results were reduced over travel, consistently smooth trigger pull and increased accuracy.

 

[DanTana]

Some words of advice from Apex Tactical

This is what Jon Shadwick at Apex told me about modifying the trigger on the M&P. Very good information.

Option #1
Order the FSS.
Install your Stock Trigger Return Spring with all the FSS Kit parts.
That should yield a 3-3.5lb trigger pull without modifications or extra costs.

Option #2
Install the complete FSS Kit with the following exceptions.
Use the Trigger Return Spring from the Comp Kit.
Use the Striker Spring from the Comp Kit.
Start off with the FSS Sear Spring, so we negate the potential for Sear Flutter.
This should yield a 2-2.5lb pull with approx a 0.25" trigger stroke.

I also recommending polishing any parts that contact metal to metal. I went with option #2 and I love it, I actually can shoot it fairly well with my terrible eyes. I also went with the anodized aluminum trigger. I don't think you can go wrong as long as you don't violate any of your sanction rules.

 

[vegasgunhand]

IMHO, it depends on what you are going to use the pistol for. If you are going to use it for some competition, then you may well want to look into changing the trigger.

If this is going to be a defensive pistol, then maybe not so much. There have been several studies conducted lately with NavSpecWarfare operators, and some SWAT teams that tend to suggest that even at this extreme level of shooter, they really don't use the reset under stress. In fact thay have developed the term "tactical slap" for this phenomenom. These highly trained operators don't use a reset, but instinctively let off the trigger, but do not use the actual reset. And in effect "slap" the trigger, but still maintain excellent marksmanship.

During my 33 years as a law enforcement firearms instructor, we have always taught muscle memory will kick in under stress, and this study suggests that is true to a point, then a bit of a trigger slap occurs, even with highly trained shooters under real stress.

I now have five full size M&P pistols, none of them have an APEX trigger. I have elected to forego the new trigger, because I find the stock trigger to be no issue in tactical shooting training and scenarios. Maybe it's because I have adapted to the trigger, but I find myself not searching for the reset as much even when I shoot my Glocks or 1911s.

My best advise to you is to find someone that has the APEX trigger installed and shoot some rounds through that gun, then make your decision. Whatever works the best for you, is what you need to go with.

 

[millisec]

While I have read the above statement here several times, I actually E-mailed S&W twice to ask them this exact question, & how it pertains to my M&P40c built in 2009. Both times they said they use the same parts, & no improvements have been made. They also said if I purchased new trigger parts, they would be exactly the same as what's already in my gun. Was he lying to me? GARY

Pretty sure at least the sear block and the extractor that goes with it has changed on most M&P's if not all. My Pro was built in 2009 and it would need a new sear block for the Apex triggers. I installed the original Apex kit (sear, striker block and springs) shortly after I got it and the difference was night and day. I did also polish up some other parts though. Trigger was different enough in pull and reset that first few test shots were unintentional double taps.

 

[Rastoff]

If you really intend to do competition, be aware the particular FSS kit is illegal in IDPA...

Sorry for being a little off topic, but can you point to the rule that says this? I haven't yet, but intend to do some IDPA shooting and want to be sure I have the right gun.


To the OP,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Apex upgrades. I wish you well in your endeavors. I lived in the Netherlands for two years when I was in the USAF. I wasn't aware they had these competitions over there.

 

[Saudade]

For a range gun, I say just shoot the dang thing. Learn to shoot it well as it is before you drop a ton of $$ (or is that €€).

 

[OKFC05]

Sorry for being a little off topic, but can you point to the rule that says this? I haven't yet, but intend to do some IDPA shooting and want to be sure I have the right gun.

IDPA prohibits the APEX FSS in SSP pistol division basically by prohibiting non-stock trigger position, but allows the internal kits that cannot be seen and do not remove internal safeties. (Magazine disconnects are specifically named as NOT being safeties.)
Look in section 8, Equipment.
SSP: 8.2.1.4.1 PROHIBITED
ESP: 8.2.2.2.11 PERMITTED
CDP: 8.2.3.2.11 PERMITTED
http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/g0hunysc.eoc.pdf

 

[Bkreutz]

IDPA prohibits the APEX FSS in all pistol divisions basically by prohibiting non-stock trigger position, but allows the internal kits that cannot be seen and do not remove internal safeties. (Magazine disconnects are specifically named as NOT being safeties.)
Look in section 8, Equipment.
SSP: 8.2.1.4.1
ESP: 8.2.2.2.11
CDP: 8.2.3.2.11
http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/g0hunysc.eoc.pdf

Are you looking at the old rules or the new ones? I just looked at my PDF (no printed book for the new rules) and I see:
8.3.2.2.
2. ESP PERMITTED Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):
• Sights may be changed to another notch and post type.
• Grips may be changed provided they do not weigh more than 2.00 oz/56.7 grams more than the
factory standard weight for that model.
• Robar-style grip reduction.
• Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained.
• Reliability work.
• Aftermarket extractors and pins may be used.
• Internal accuracy work.
• Replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration in a stock or non-stock caliber.
• Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the magazine well.
• Aftermarket triggers and trigger work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the
stock trigger position.
• Externally visible trigger over travel stops.
• Hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger pull.
• Checkering, serrating, and stippling.
• Reshape trigger guard.
• Extended and/or ambidextrous thumb safety.
• Extended beavertail grip safety.
• Extended magazine release (button may not be oversize in diameter or protrude more than .2" out
from the frame).
• Ambidextrous or right side magazine releases.
• Extended, trimmed, and/or ambidextrous slide releases.
• Heavy or cone style barrels on firearms with barrel lengths of 4.25" or less.
• Recoil spring guide rods and dual spring recoil systems made of material that is no heavier than
stainless steel.
• Slide inserts to accommodate a different recoil assembly design.
• Modification of the magazine well and add-on well extensions.
• Custom finishes and engraving may be applied.
• Aftermarket slide cover plates.
• Slides with front cocking serrations, tri-top, carry melts, and high power cuts.
• The use of grip tang extensions.

3. ESP EXCLUDED Features and Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):
• Steel dust covers and rails over 3.25" (as measured from the rear of the slide stop pin to the most
forward portion of the dust cover or rail) are not permitted.
• Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.
• Oversize diameter magazine release buttons.
• Trigger shoes.
• Disabling the slide stop.
• Swenson style thumb shields and frame mounted thumb shields.

I put the whole section in for reference.

The Apex trigger would be prohibited under SSP because of the externally visual modifications other than listed in the Permitted Modification section. clause.

 

[andrewcdub]

For a range gun, I say just shoot the dang thing. Learn to shoot it well as it is before you drop a ton of $$ (or is that €€).

What I was just about to say. I said it before in another thread, I'd spend the money on ammo and just go shoot it a bunch first. Then decide if you feel you need to have the parts replaced.

 

[Rastoff]

IDPA prohibits the APEX FSS in all pistol divisions basically by prohibiting non-stock trigger position, but allows the internal kits that cannot be seen and do not remove internal safeties. (Magazine disconnects are specifically named as NOT being safeties.)
Look in section 8, Equipment.
SSP: 8.2.1.4.1
ESP: 8.2.2.2.11
CDP: 8.2.3.2.11
http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/g0hunysc.eoc.pdf

Thank you for the rule clarification. It seems that one of us is reading the rules wrong. As I see it, the Apex mod is allowed, but moves you into a specific class.

Here is the whole rule just to be clear:

• 8.2.2.2. ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):
• 8.2.2.2.11. Aftermarket triggers and trigger work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the stock trigger position.
• -
• 8.2.3.2. CDP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):
• 8.2.3.2.11. Aftermarket triggers and trigger work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the stock trigger position.

So, yes, it would be disallowed in the SSP class because the trigger is a mod that can be seen. But, it is specifically allowed in both ESP and CDP classes. At least that's how I read it.

 

[OKFC05]

it would be disallowed in the SSP class because the trigger is a mod that can be seen. But, it is specifically allowed in both ESP and CDP classes.

This is correct.
The latest (unpublished) online rules forbid FSS in SSP but do now allow it in ESP and CDP.

This latest change makes the rule more like the USPSA Production/Limited comparison.
As an aside, I found 33 changes from my last rules I printed out for the SO online test, and what I now see online. It would be most helpful for HQ IDPA to publish a new book of the final, really, no more changes, this is it, rules.

 

[dullh]

The single most worthwhile part in the Apex kit is the USB. If you don't want to spring (pun intended?) for the entire kit, just get the USB. You'll notice a difference right away.

 

[TheGunman]

Most people have the free state version and I can tell you having shot an M&P from a ban state. Get the apex and ram kit, those two made my gun perfect.

The combo of the trigger and the grip I think M&Ps are so much better than glocks. Speaking of which a gen 2 G19 will run about 500-650$ here in mass my smith costs a whopping 370$ with everything on it

 

[Jagrmaister]

Undoubtedly. I installed the DCAEK in my M&P. Probably the gun I'm most accurate with now. I don't have the RAM, and the reset with the lighter spings has a very light feel (when compared to other handguns, or even stock) is the only downside. That's being picky, however, and I don't plan on changing a thing because my APEX-equipped M&P is truly impressive and an absolute blast to shoot now.