Are S&W Canted Barrel Problems Getting Less Frequent

[Bob1943]

As some of you may have read, I am on a search for a new Model 617 & Model 29 Classic. For at least the past 6 months, none have been found in the metro Phoenix area. So, the chance of having to order online (if I can find them) is probably the only way that I will be able to get one within the coming year.

My biggest concern in ordering online (i.e., not physically inspecting the gun before I buy it) is getting one that has a canted barrel - see a lot of complaints about this, both with Ruger & S&W. In fact, one of my Ruger GP100s has about a 1-degree cant (over-clocked) on it.

I was in an LGS yesterday and asked to see a new Model 629. Sales person handed it to me and sure enough, there was about a 1 to 2 -degree cant in the barrel.

So, for you guys that have recently bought new S&W revolvers, what kind of luck have you had in getting a barrel that is not either over or under clocked? I am trying to figure out what the chances are of getting a canted barrel on a new gun, maybe 30 to 50%? Too bad that we have to be concerned about a QC issue like this on a new gun.

 

[rwsmith]

+/- 5 degrees???

I understand that any barrel within +/- 5 degrees is in tolerance. I think that is a ridiculously loose tolerance for something that was made so carefully up to that point.

I wouldn't want a gun that I could look at and say, "The barrel's crooked".

 

[Edmo]

You can always send it back to be straightened.

Last month I received a 640 Pro Series as a replacement gun from the factory and it showed up with a clocked barrel. Aggravating, but they straightened it. You'll just have to ship it back and wait several additional weeks.

Tweaked barrels come in cycles. Last year several gun shops in my area had 686s with clocked barrels. I couldn't find a straight one. Now it is the opposite, they all seem to be straight.

I guess the 686 barrel torquing machine was readjusted, but apparently the 640 barrel machine isn't due for calibration yet. It is anybody's guess on the 617 or 629 barrel machines!

Again, if you get a bent one you can send it back and they'll straighten it. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edmo

 

[Cal44]

I had them fix the canted barrel on an M60 I bought new last year. No problem, and they fixed it fast.

If I was going to order a gun from the factory that was hard to find locally, I'd just go ahead and do it.

Then if it came canted, I'd send it back, since I know they will fix it free and quickly.

It's a PITA, but that way you get what you want.

 

[madmikeb]

I bought a new 617 two weeks ago and a 69 about 4 months ago and there are no problems with either one.
They actually seem to be quite well put together, and I'm quite pleased with both.

 

[MJFlores]

I recently bought a 629 4" that I'm very happy with now. When I bought it, I inspected it and 2 others and chose the best of the three. One had a clocked barrel sight, the other had much more "meat" on one side of the frame than the other where the barrel is threaded on. I got mine home and found it shot a foot to the left and had to crank the rear sight to the right as far as it would go to get a zero. I had to send it back twice before it was properly fixed. It can be maddening trying to get a new S&W that is near acceptable these days. It's actually kind of sad. Again, they'll most likely fix it but get ready to call, send it back, call again and complain, etc, etc. Gone are the days where you could just buy one from the cabinet and take it home knowing its properly built, shoots, doesn't bind the cylinder, is properly timed, etc. Again, I love mine now and wont ever part with it...mostly because of how hard it was to finally be happy with it. I would never buy a new S&W unseen if I were you...not unless huge changes happen at that company. They need to up their Quality Control and increase their labor skills but people keep buying so where is their motivation? I know this sounds like a scathing review of S&W..and maybe it is, but I don't mean it to be. I really like a nice, properly made and produced S&W revolver. I'm just frustrated customer who went through hell to get what I paid $800 for. If I were you I'd wait and buy one in person...and bring a straight edge, bore laser, and feeler gauges with you. If I did it over again, I would contact a bunch of reputable revolver smiths and see if they may have what you're looking for, and that they've already gone through and corrected issues on. Another way, and I've only seen this once is...a local gun shop here did a "S&W" days where they had a trailer that you could try out and shoot different S&W guns in. You could try one and verify it before buying. I dont know if this was put on by S&W or the shop but being able to try it first sounded great to me when I heard about it. Good luck in your search and decision.

 

[bigtubby]

You only here about the one's that are clocked. And it seems that the guys who are most hypercritical would never be happy even if it was perfect.

"bring a straight edge, bore laser, and feeler gauges with you" Really I thought all the imperfections stood out like a sore thumb?

I have bought 2 new S&W's within the last 3 months a 327 TRR8 & a 627 V-comp both are perfect as far as I can tell.

 

[Bob1943]

I understand that any barrel within +/- 5 degrees is in tolerance. I think that is a ridiculously loose tolerance for something that was made so carefully up to that point.

I wouldn't want a gun that I could look at and say, "The barrel's crooked".

Wow, 5-degrees is hard to believe. I was able to get a decent measurement on my Ruger GP100 and it is right at 1-degree and it is visually noticeable - although I did not catch it when I bought the gun, was not familiar with canted barrels at that time. However, the sight picture does not look bad, i.e., the front sight blade looks pretty near vertical in the fixed rear sight notch, but you can see just a little bit of overclock where the barrel meets the frame.

A 5-degree cant would be gross looking - hard to believe something that bad would get past QC.

Due to the lack of inventory locally, I will probably end up rolling the dice and order one from Buds or Davidsons (when & if they become available) and see what it looks like before accepting it. They both have return policies where they pay shipping back to them if you find a defect upon delivery.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have said before, and will say again, that the "problem" is MUCH overstated, likely brought about by the fact that the internet allows those who have experienced the problem to reach far more individuals with the complaint, which gives the appearance that the problem is bigger than it really is.

In addition, some people are prone to complain about every little machine mark, every tiny "imperfection" and yet they want to pay "Chevrolet" price for "Rolls-Royce" attention to detail. S&Ws are mass produced, not hand built. If you want hand built, go buy a Korth with your $3,995.00, if you are happy with their base model. If not, $6,258.00 will buy the top of the line Korth.*

Finally, some people see things that are just not there in any real sense (ever wonder why we don't see pictures of the supposed canted barrel in most of the complaint threads?). I try to ask for pictures when I see such a thread, and there are not often any takers.

Finally, when you see how barrels are installed, it is amazing to me that barrels are not canted far more often than reported. To get the barrel/cylinder gap correct, along with the correct torque, and at the same time have the front sight be exactly straight up and down is quite a problem, and for S&W to be able to mass produce in this fashion with as few problems as they have is evidence of fantastic engineering and quality control.

*From the 2004 price list.

 

[jwolford]

I recently bought a 686 and a 627. No problems. One bought from a LGS and the other from Osage County thru gunbroker.

 

[MarkAlt]

I'm far from an expert, but can say this has been an amazingly good month for my gun acquisitions. I'm so thankful for that after my wife and I losing our careers last year.

My revolvers all got the once-over, but were never checked for this 'cant' issue. I'm not even going to give it a second thought or check any of them. My 'old' job was a product reviewer for broadcast equipment. I can't tell you how much 'forum fever' has effected good products. The problem is that as always, since the beginning of time, a product imperfection hits the market. In the old days, it was simply corrected by the 'good companies' and that was that. Today, if an imperfect product hits the market, photos and threads are instantly spread around the world and you would think there was a pandemic.

Just my own opinion, but if I wanted a 617 (mine is a fantastic piece, ...IL and all), I wouldn't even consider the 'cant' issue. When I received it, I'd give it the once-over, take it to the range and have a blast. There are just too many other things to worry about. For all I know, I have a safe full of canted guns. Don't know.

Maybe I sounded too soap-boxy there, so apologize. For every problem posted, there are probably hundreds, maybe thousands of (close to) perfect models being enjoyed.

Just my opinion. I hope you get a lifetime of use and enjoyment from your future 617!

 

[ggibson511960]

How Does it Happen?

I have only seen one badly clocked barrel in my years of fondling these wonderful revolvers. It was a M-14 in the early 70's that a store clerk showed me before he sent it back. It was grossly out of index, probably 10 degrees. I own a M-29 that is at first glance slightly off, but close inspection shows a front sight slightly bent, dropped perhaps. Both these are pre-Bangor Punta guns when QC mattered. It baffles me how one can get out the door in this condition and I would bet that only a very few do. The assembler only has to align the barrel ribs or lugs within a broad range of torques, then face off the barrel breach to get the cylinder gap correct. Not too big a trick if you have a few million trial runs to get dimensions and torque values. I've wondered if barrels ever un-wind. Somebody at S&W must have thought it could happen in the old days or they wouldn't have pinned the barrel, or maybe the pin allowed them to index the barrel within a wide range of torque values. Whatever the cause I'll bet it's a quick fix at the S&W shop with frame vises and barrel wrenches close at hand. If I had to send one back I would check cylinder gap before I let them "fix" it to make sure they did it right.

 

[tdw63]

I have purchased two new Smiths in the past month, a M-686 Plus-6 and a M-67-5 both have barrels that are spot on. Both of these guns were bought online at Davidson's Gallery of Guns. The only complaint I have is that the M-67 has a couple of dings on the front sight shelf that holds the sight.

 

[MichiganScott]

I've shot S&W revolvers for over 40 years. I can't tell visually whether or not a barrel is over or under clocked one or two degrees. Five degrees may be a different story.

I have always figured that adjustable sights would take care of minor assembly issues anyway.

If it bothers you, use customer service and send it back in on their dime.

 

[Jim Watson]

I left a 686 off at the gunsmith to have the barrel sawn off, back when 5" was allowed by IDPA, and a Weigand interchangeable blade ramp installed. He was so annoyed by the canted barrel that he milled the top rib flat and square before putting on the ramp. It doesn't look stock any more, but the sights are square.

 

[foytfoyt]

I purchased a new revolver from a local store last year, and when they got the non "display' model out of the back room, the barrel was visibly canted. They had another that I purchased.

Yes the problem is real, and still happens. I would make a wild guess of 5% of new revolvers.

I believe the main reason S&W has been introducing more shrouded barrel designs is to avoid this very issue.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

In addition to the above responses, having purchased several (my wife says "many") firearms through the Internet, I have a few additional thoughts on this subject:

1. I am not sure whether or not the seller has an obligation to disclose this fact in the listing. However, I certainly would, and a seller certainly should. Negative feedback regarding a non-disclosed firearm defect can be a "wooden stake through the heart" for any seller. After I have completed the required documents at my LGS I have one of the most knowledgeable people there go over the firearm with me before I walk out. If not disclosed, this is another opportunity to identify this problem, if it exists. He and I identified a Model 57 with a "trigger action job" that was never disclosed. The seller allowed me to return it for a full refund.

2. If this is a risk or concern for any buyer, I would certainly make a specific inquiry of the seller about it in the "pre-bid" questions. No matter what the listing states, I always send an e-mail to the seller or call before I start bidding regarding my own "hot buttons" - 1) trigger job or action, 2) excessive barrel-cylinder gap, undisclosed mechanical issues, 3) excessive cylinder play, etc. I have several Model 25s and I always asked the sellers about the possibility of oversized cylinder throats before I bid. They never complained to me about my request. As a seller, this has never been a "PITA Issue", resolving these possible issues before a buyer bids is far better than attempting to resolve these issues post-sale.

3. Although we all have a difference of opinion regarding the responsiveness and timely resolution of warranty issues by the OEM, I believe that, for the most part, they are eventually resolved in our favor. The S&W Holding Company sales and profits are on the rise. That would not happen if it were not for us.

 

[686 SSR]

I recently purchased a Model 69 and couldn't be more please with the workmanship and more importantly, accuracy.

The Model 69's two piece barrel is engineered/designed so that it is impossible to ever be canted. The outside of the barrel is simply a shroud that is keyed into a notch on the frame. The inside of the barrel is then threaded into the outside shroud.

It appears the Model 66-8 (I've never seen one in person) utilizes the same design which now has me lusting after one of those too. This excellent design feature is dangerous to my financial health!!!

 

[S&W Rover]

In the last year or two, I've added a Mdl 60 and a Mdl 640, both of which are perfect. The Mdl 432 I bought recently has a shrouded barrel, which looks pretty good and as mentioned is built in such a way as to avoid the canted barrel problem.

I'd be very interested in someone assessing the strength, durability, and accuracy of the shrouded barrel setup versus the traditional one-piece barrel, which might be a suitable topic for another thread [I don't want to hijack or divert this thread]. When I first saw the 619 and 620, I was pretty sure I didn't like them, but I have to admit the new Model 66 is appealing. Is there a significant disadvantage to the shrouded barrel? It appears there is at least one big advantage, both for S&W and the customer, as this thread indicates.

 

[robert1804]

I've purchased 10 new S&W revolvers this year. Only two of them had any problems. A 629 6" is very slightly canted, enough to need the sight adjusted a few clicks to the right. Everything else about it, including the accuracy, is fine so I'm not sending it in.

The other is a 67-5. Its barrel was canted enough to need the rear sight adjusted about half way between centered and full right. That bothered me enough to send it in. They fixed it right quick and it was perfect when I got it back.

I agree with 686 SSR, my M 69 is flawless as is my 66-8. There must be something good about the newer shrouded barrel designs. On a good vision day, my 69 is just as accurate the 629 6". My 66-8 is my most accurate 4" 38/357 and is real close to my most accurate revolver of all, a TRR 8.