At some point, all the guns get sold.

[mikepriwer]

I wonder if I should get my last remains cremated, ground fine, mixed with smokeless powder, loaded with trap & skeet loads and shot off over several weekends at the club ?

David

I got a good laugh out of this comment. It reminds me of our older
daughters father-in-law who died a couple years ago. He was 83 or
more, and a former psychiatric professor at Cornell Medical School
in New York City. He wanted to be cremated, and the ashes spread over
Times Square, one of his favorite hangouts !

Well - the first part was easy ; he was cremated. Our son-in-law
got worried about spreading ashes all over Times Square, wondering if
he might wind up in jail ! I think the ashes have wound up in various
streams and along some bicycling paths !

Which just goes to show that not only do we not know, for sure,
where the guns will wind up, but there might be some uncertainty as
to our ultimate whereabouts.

Regards, Mike

 

[Bat Guano]

Speaking strictly for myself, I think perhaps I have had it a little too good the last few years. There aren't many signs of affluence around the place but there are some nice items in the gun safe. Dang near every itch has been scratched, but some turned out not to really be very important after all.

The "best" ones have been the most fun, been part of the best times, or remind me of people and relationships. Generally they tend not to be the fanciest or most expensive ones. A few of them could charitably be called beaters, I guess.

I'm lucky in that my kids are shooters, and appreciative--even though they have pursuits of their own that are higher priorities.

I have given a few away already and truth be told it feels pretty good.

 

[cxm]

Mike,

I signed up for Social Security last month... it has brought home my mortality in a major way... and your post raises the issue of exactly what should be done with my collection.

My wife shoots, but is not a collector and she has quite a few guns of her own... so I have been thinking about what I need to do with my collection and when...

On one hand I can do nothing and let my wife handle it... the other extreme is sell it all off and just keep the pictures on file...

I'm leaning toward the idea of selling everything but the ones i shoot with some regularity... that might be the answer...

More thinking to do... but it is an issue we all face sooner or later...

V/r

Chuck

Originally posted by SaxonPig:
You're right, Mike. Guns are objects and there's no guarantee that our heirs will share our appreciation for the guns we have collected. Look at how many times you see brand new members asking how much the gun their father/grandfather left them is worth. Why do you suppose they want to know this information? It ain't to make the gun prettier.

I would love to have even one of my dad's guns. He died when I was young with no insurance and mom had to sell them so we could eat. All I know is that there's a photo in the family album of him standing beside a 1949 Ford next to a Kansas wheat field drawing a bead with a 7.5" Colt Single Action Army. Photo is dated 1951 so it had to be a 1st generation Colt SAA and since the army cut all the guns to 5.5" the long barrel is rare. Another photo shows him wearing a police officer's uniform complete with cross-draw rig carrying a DA revolver in a full-flap holster. No idea what type of pistol but I wish I had it. Mom says there was also a Colt 45 auto he brought back from the war and his hunting rifles and shotguns. I can't imagine selling an heirloom gun but you know many if not most people apparently don't share my feelings.

In my case I don't wonder if my heirs will keep my collection together or appreciate it as I do. I have no children. My widow will sell all of my guns post haste.

Given my ever increasingly rapid physical deterioration you may want to keep an eye on the obituaries. Will be a pretty good gun sale. Too bad I'll have to miss it.

The car got cropped out in Photoshop but here's dad with his Colt.

 

[Kobold_27]

Originally posted by Onomea:
Very true, Mike.

But, I think I would rather have someone who really loved my guns owning them in the future rather than my children or theirs if they didn't care for them.

Just about everything about our lives is fleeting, so it makes sense that the ownership of guns is the same way. Just the way it is.

Arlo,

As always my friend, well stated.



Mike,

Your post has brought to mind many thoughts.

These material things we all covet are indeed fleeting. As for coveting them, it is a losing battle, just as is old age and taxes. I have been told that every day is a gift. A very wise scholar once wrote about what he referred to as the three inescapable sufferings we humans will have to endure: birth, sickness, and death. Whenever I see a fellow's collection up for sale, postmortem, I wonder if that fellow would have appreciated the disposition of his guns given that most likely, much toil, blood, sweat, and tears were put into acquiring them. Some folks have the luxury of buying an entire collection, however one defines his collection, but most folks buy or "pick up" in what seems to be the collector's parlance, a gun here and there along their path in life. Either way, as you say, they will all be up for sale at some point, as this mortal coil is fleeting.

Your post brings to mind another thought: Just how much longer will our collections be worth anything?

With what appears (Lib-Tard dominated press spin influence acknowledged) an impending large downturn in our economy, and perhaps after the election in November, future draconian gun control laws, I foresee the day when it may be reality that we citizens will be unable to legally trade or sell our guns. In addition, if one looks at which types of guns are currently collectible and sought after and compares them to what collectors were seeking, say in 1950, it does give one cause to wonder for how many more years a Pre 29, Wolf & Klar, Pre War Heavy Duty, Triple Lock, etc., will be a hot commodity to a significant segment of our Country's population.

Take for example, a current collector that is picking up every rare, in terms of production numbers, Performance Center gun with the hopes that in thirty years, they will bring a good return on his investment. I think not, but who knows what will be collectible then? Take for example the fact that there are Glock collectors out there; there is even a Glock Collectors Association. Nothing against Glocks, I have one on my person quite often, but it goes to show that your original post is quite true, at some point all our guns will move on down the proverbial trail. But this brings me back to my question, will there be time when a rare PC gun or a "first generation" NIB Glock be a hotter commodity than a factory engraved such and such? I hope not, but who's to say?

I have had this discussion with several well-established collectors who are leagues above my pay grade, and most have agreed that there will be a definite window of time where these wonderful works of art in steel and wood that we all cherish will be of significant value. Times and trends do indeed change.

As for my humble herd, and because I love my wife so very much, and given her undying support of my hobby, in other words: she puts up with my rants and raves and what must seem to her, my endless folly over guns, I have made very specific arrangements right down to the very last gun, so that in the case that I expire before she does, that she receive the maximum financial benefit from whatever I do have. I take some solace in knowing that if I get hit by a bus today, she will at least get the benefit of the toil I have taken to put together whatever collection, call it what you will, I have.

As of late, I have considered selling off most everything, but my love of them gets the better of me. And as I do believe that every day is a gift, I make an effort to remind myself of that by regularly pulling something out a safe and fondling it for a while.


Best,

Michael

 

[j38]

Thank you all for the thoughtful discussion - and Mike especially - for starting it. It has made me mindful of not only the eventual disposition of my small collection - but has also made me revisit the subject of my future collecting practices.

SP, Very neat picture of your father. I'm digging around to see if I can find any of my own Dad wearing his service revolver - which I now have.

Regards, Jerry

 

[mikepriwer]

I probably won't address all the ideas that were raised in the past day or so,
but I can offer the following comments on a couple of issues.

As to the future of gun collecting in general, the Supreme Court is hearing
the challenge to the 2nd Amendment, being brought by Washington, DC. Needless
to say, this is very very important. The early indications, that I read the
other day, is that the court seems favorable towards gun ownership, but the ruling
may , or may not, be as wide as we might like. The principal question is about
gun ownership outside the context of a militia; hopefully that will get resolved.

As to "collecting" very modern guns, like PC offerings, etc, my view is that they
are not classic collectibles. They are fun to own, but they are far too young
to have any collectible attributes. Among other things, a lot of them are
limited editions, which some of us feel means limited to as many as they can sell.
Over the years, the next generation of collectors may find these more desireable
than pre-WW2 5-screws. I have no problem with that, as I am sure that there
are many antique collectors who looks on a Victory as a modern gun !

The more difficult question is - what to do with a collection when you start to
think about your own mortality. Needless to say, this is not an infrequent
event. Check any auction catalog, to see whose collection is being featured
this month.

Personally, I like the idea of estate planning, as oppossed to not having a
plan. The plan does not have to mean that there is only cash. It does not have
to mean that all the artwork, guns, cars, houses, etc, have been long-ago sold.
About 4 years, I was faced with having to move my collection (about 600 guns)
yet again, and I decided that it just wasn't worth it. So, I gave it some
serious thought, and came up with a few central ideas about what I really
wanted to focus on. That core was about 80 guns - the rest got sold. There were
a lot of great guns that I did not keep - only because they just didn't fit with
that central idea. Four years later, there are maybe a half-dozen guns that I
wish I had kept - but just a very few.

There is one other thing that I wanted to mention. There are well-known
collectors who have put together very good collections with a particular focus,
then abruptly sold it, and then , sometime later, started up another collection
with a different focus. I think the generality of this is the "been there,
done that" idea.

Maybe there is, for each of us, a small handful of guns
that are always very important, and perhaps we should always keep those few
guns. Selling the other is a way of mentally recharging yourself. Its like
selling out a position in some stock. Only after it is gone, can you think
about buying it back. Do you really have a good reason to buy it back ? That
is a very different question from - should I hold on to it, and not sell ?
There are two very different questions ,and once it's sold, then buying it
back beocmes competitive with - manybe I'll buy something else, which perhaps
you couldn't think about while still owning the original position.

This has definitely been a fun thread, and I'm happy to see that we are not
alone in worrying about some of these matters !

Regards, Mike

 

[rburg]

The focus of this thread so far is the planned sale as opposed to the uncontrolled estate sale. There is little doubt in my mind that those of us that have collected the guns are in a much better position to sell them than our widowed spouse or a non-gun executor. We're the ones that know the guns the best, the rare features, and what the selling points are.

Many of us that have collected respectable collections find that sometimes the thrill is gone. What we end up keeping is one or two of the best or most representative examples of our focus, then dumping the other guns. Thats something others might have a terrible time figuring out.

I was never into it as badly as Mike with his 600. But I've probably dumped half that number over the last 5 or so years. After you understand what you're doing and make the first few sales, it becomes easy. It doesn't even mean I've stopped buying. I've even found it easy to justify buying a different and interesting (to me) gun right after I've sold 20.

Others here may be smarter than I am. I've discovered that I learn best by having the gun in my hand. And then putting it down and picking up a different example to see the differences. Nothing makes you feel better than having a table or workbench full of rare guns to spend an evening with. Its a kind of wealth that its hard to explain. But I feel wealthy sitting in my dining room with a dozen or so prewar K22s, looking for when a feature starts, etc.

What you learn is that suddenly you just don't need all of them. They own you. Its like having livestock, the constant ownership worries exceed the value.

 

[xHypex]

I lurk much more than I post, but this thread really had an impact on me yesterday so I bookmarked it. I came back today to some additional, insightful comments and just wanted to share a different viewpoint.

I'm on the younger side at 25, but I've always been interested in firearms and especially so for about the last four years. I suppose when you turn 21 that is a logical progression since you can finally own a handgun, but being from the city I had very little shooting background. Over time I did lots of research, acquired some guns including a Model 10 4th change that was my grandfather's, and spent time at different forums depending on what interested me at the time. However, this forum and THR are where I truly find the most interesting information.

The personal stories you all share are very much appreciated, and I'm sure there are many others besides myself that genuinely enjoy them. As to the future collectibility of revolvers there is definitely a shift in interest away from them today, but I'm sure you'll see things shift back in the not too distant future. I grew up in the post Glock world and I own an XD myself, but revolvers have a simplicity, history, and allure to them much greater than the new handgun choices available today. I hardly ever recall seeing anyone including police carry a revolver (I haven't even seen Dirty Harry actually), and since I had a fairly self directed learning experience I definitely didn't have a revolver bias starting out. Additionally, manufacturing is a great interest of mine, so there is much more to learn and like about the old S&Ws than today's CNC machined parts.

Long story short there's definitely something very special about wheel guns even for someone who has a huge pool of new release semi-autos to learn about each year. One thing's for sure; you can only look at new product info and handle 10 versions of essentially the same handgun so long before it gets old. On the flipside magazine articles and the like are also only interesting for so long, but listening to individual's recollections of their own experiences or tale about why a specimen is interesting to them never gets old.

I do believe that now is a golden age for revolvers because many of the collectors here have an appreciation above and beyond the generation's between yours and mine, but more than the guns I think you gentlemen will be the reason revolvers have a bright future

Not everyone's kids will share their fathers love of revolvers, but for every one who doesn't there is likely someone else out there that is captivated by the traditional equalizer and the stewards who cared for the revolver before them.
-hype

 

[Dan M]

My Father got me interested in Gun Collecting many years ago. In 1982 he was left paralyzed in a car accident. Guns were his salvation as he could Read all day and then search the gunshows and gunshops looking for his newest find.

His Collection was a wide variety of Early Civil War/WWI/WWII Military and Western Guns.

But His real love was the Model 1890 Winchester, he had one of each caliber for each year they were made.

1 year ago on April 5th he passed away and his wishes for his collection never happened.

But during his last couple years of Life he saw the end coming and gave me the guns he had as a kid and the ones he enjoyed the most from his collection. He also passed on all of our Family Pictures and Heirlooms to me so I could distribute them to my Brothers & Sisters when he was gone.

I thank God he had the vision to do so, because after his passing my Step Mother sold everything with no regards to the surviving Children. If not for his foresight my siblings and I would have got none of those things that he cherished, and the memories we have had nothing to substantiate them with.

When I feel the time is right, I will give my Son all my most cherished Guns. And then sell the rest so he won't have to worry about them.

Dan M

 

[mikepriwer]

Dick

I would add that an estate plan might well be an arrangement with a
respected dealer, or auction house. I think if a spouse knows what to do,
or who to call, a lot of the problem goes away.

Another of my collecting hobbies is wine, which also got out of hand
many many years ago. Anyway, about 3 or 4 years ago, one of the major
wine auction houses sent out a catalog for what was to be a 3-part auction
of the wine cellar of John MacDonald. He had amassed a monstrous collection
of fine French wines, as well as others. The auction was in three parts,
spread over about a year.

John had decided to move to Hawaii, and in reviewing all the air-conditioned
trailers that were going to be necessary, combined with the over-seas shipping,
convinced him that it was better to sell. So, he committed it all to
auction. Something then happened, and he decided to buy another house
in Astoria, OR,and not move to Hawaii. This new house had even a larger
wine cellar than his previous houses, which were large, but he went
ahead with the auction anyway, and all the wines were sold. These were some
really great French wines, and a lot of them.

About a year later, we heard that John was back to buying wines - this time
with a different focus, but still in large quantities. He had been a
CFO with American Express,and had retired rather early in life. We ran
into John one evening at a wine dinner at a San Diego restaurant. I
introduced myself, and asked him about his decision to sell the fabulous
collection when he really didn't have to. (Of course, I was really looking
for some thoughts about my own situation.) He said - there is three phases
to collecting. First is the accumulation phase, second is the disposition
phase, and the third is - you start over again !

I felt very comfortable with that idea !

Regards, Mike

 

[lonewolf]

With my retirement,at 65, approaching in June, I plan to consign the bulk of my Smiths and Colts, the great majority pre 1960, to several New England auction houses. I will keep "a few" special ones that I enjoy reloading for, and shooting.

My only child, a daughter, and her hubby, lack any interest in guns (although daughter wants many of the vehicle models I've built over the years for "memories"-and probably to sell in fleabay!)

Hopefully, my retirement income will be sufficent so as to be able to use the "chunk" I get from the revolvers, to buy some type of
"new toy"(s), and not be piddled off to living expenses.

Why the auctions route, as if anyone cares:

Will make it easier on the wife, if she survives me, and prevent her from being "mooched" or ripped off.

More "democratic" to offer some vintage, and many relatively rare, revolvers to a wider number of people vs. "dealers" (

)

Any buyer who finds "issues" with the revolvers after purchase can deal with auction firms, not me, as well as my not having to deal with as much "paperwork".

Bud

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
I would add that an estate plan might well be an arrangement with a
respected dealer, or auction house. I think if a spouse knows what to do,
or who to call, a lot of the problem goes away.

One of the reasons I stopped promoting that approach is because of my watching the events of last July. My very good friend and long time gunshowing pard passed away 7/1. Many that read and post here knew or met John.

He'd been having cardiac problems for decades (maybe related to smoking, or maybe our consuming "blood thinners" at fine restaurants.) The timing of his demise was unexpected. I could see he was having trouble, but he wouldn't admit to it. His instructions had been made clear for years. She was just to call a friendly (and presumably knowledgable) FFL and let them handle it.

Here's my take on it: They did a terrible job. At first she was pretty happy because she got a few consignment checks for large sums. When I last spoke to her about a month ago, she asked if I had any idea how the other sales were coming. That told me a lot. They just dumped the great guns for a token of the value. She got checks, but I seriously doubt for anywhere near full value. Didn't matter to them, they took the same 15% either way, and quick money must have been better for them.

I've only got personal knowledge of a couple of the sales. One to a member here that stops and talks at the shows. He scored 2 great revolvers for a tiny fraction of the value. That as measured either by what John paid for them, or what any fool could determine.

I've been so outraged by the events that the same dealer has been pulled from being one of my "go to guys" in my instructions to "stay way from" places. And they're assumed to be a very good dealer. My guess is also that the very large knife collection went for pennies, the huge ammo stores for nothing at all.

Where this has left me is more confused than before it all started. I thought I was doing things right. Now I'm almost certain that I'm not. If you don't die instantly, you might be able to do some management of the sale. We're seeing one of those situations unfold now, unfortuneately. In that one, I'm not even sure I want to see the widow do well. She didn't like us gun nuts.

One new poster above made comments about us revolver guys being out of style. Thats true. My own gun nut son has very little interest in revolvers, but loves modernistical autos. At least he'll commandeer my huge stockpiles of loaded 9mm stuff. Ammo is getting to be a significant value item. Especially old and obsolete calibers. Easy to cheat a widow out of that. Who would want 15 or 20 boxes of factory Jet? Components for a few thousand more rounds?

Lastly..wine. We don't buy big quantities, we buy a bottle here and there, usually on vacation at small wineries. In March we picked up a fair assortment of wines in Palisades, CO and Spanish Valley, UT. Interesting because my wife selected desert wines. She's selecting late harvest wines, and we even bought a bottle of ice wine. That was really good, if expensive for a domestic. She prefers half bottles/375ml. I guess she thinks if I can get her or me drunk, I'll "take advantage of her."

 

[victorylarry]

Specific estate planning arrangements are essential, as well as, having a trusted friend/collector oversee the sale. A trusted friend's overall knowledge of firearms (condition rating especially), and the process by which large collections are brokered, can be essential for ensuring for a timely sale with proper return on the collection.
We all know how the internet can play a major role in market pricing. Check out the two big auction sites, and we see more and more family memebers selling off collections one item at a time. Good pictures combined with descriptions (often from the collectors own detailed notes) will determine fair market price. As more and more dealers use their licenses to facilitate transfers, this will become an easier way to fairly dispose of collections. I would imagine $20+postage and % of the sale price is already pretty common for dealer to market these estates on line if the family does not do it on their own.
As for collecting, I would love to think I would be able to pass on a bulk of my arms to other enthusiastic collectors during my lifetime. That's half the joy of collecting in my mind-sharing your knowledge and having someone be as excited as you were when you first found that particular piece. The hunt for a particular item is the most fun, but helping someone else fill a spot in their collection is not bad feeling either.
I also like the advice of a fellow S&W collector gave me a few years ago. He own 20 guns. If he buys #21, he puts one up for sale. It makes you a more careful buyer and also makes you consider what you will need to give up. It will also be a little easier on the heirs to divide up or sell.

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by victorylarry:
He own 20 guns. If he buys #21, he puts one up for sale.

Not sure how anyone could get by with just 20.....

 

[mikepriwer]

I guess she thinks if I can get her or me drunk, I'll "take advantage of her."

I'm not sure about this, either .

Regards, Mike

 

[victorylarry]

Originally posted by rburg:

Originally posted by victorylarry:
He own 20 guns. If he buys #21, he puts one up for sale.

Not sure how anyone could get by with just 20.....

Mr. Burg, maybe you should add a zero to the number.

 

[Doc44]

Probably best to consign all of your guns to a national auction house and sell them all at one time. One time deal, one check, little hassle. Auctions provide great value on some guns, less on others; overall a decent value for your collection. Besides, who bought guns as a investment only? If you did, then you are not a true collector in my opinion.

Bill

 

[pace40]

I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have read this thread coming up on bedtime. It certainly is food for thought. I hope I have enough sense and time to be able to plan properly. I have just begun to think about fine tuning the collection to a specific focus or two and cutting the piece count down...or maybe I'll just buy an extra large plot and have the safes buried with me

 

[Muley Gil]

Hey Bud,

Glad to see you back on the Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by victorylarry:
Mr. Burg, maybe you should add a zero to the number.

Been there, done that. No shirts available.


The best thing about this thread is that we have a big time collector (I'm small time, only using half of Mike's total) saying it out loud. Its OK to dump some guns on the market.

We have this contingent of what I assume are shooters here that constantly preach "never sell a gun". Clear to me that those are guys with very small accumulations. When you get to the point where you feel you own too many, its time to sell and let someone else enjoy them for a while (and clean and lube them, and worry about theft, rust, fire, flooding, etc.) Besides, it keeps the market churning and frees up money for the next purchase or two...

One of the more interesting things to do is sell 10 or 20 guns at good prices, and then take all the money, add some to it, and buy....one new gun.

OK, so its not a clunker.

I understand when a guy has one or two revolvers, maybe a rifle or shotgun or two and he stands against selling anything.