At some point, all the guns get sold.

[DMark]

Great thread.

It did get me thinking about the future and I'm happy to say I think its in good hands for my part.

Both of my kids are in college. A few months ago my son and I were in the "Gun Room" putting our firearms back in their racks after an IDPA match.

Looking at the "accumulation" of a lifetime my son said, "Dad - Not to sound weird but once your gone Sis can have the Glocks...., I want the Smiths!"

Good Boy!

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I can only add a few thoughts here.

On the topic of demise and what to do with the collection, I have written instructions in the safe to contact a fellow collector who has agreed to part out my collection as he sees fit. A few guns are to be pulled out for the family and they are written down so there is no confusion.

On the "upgrading", that is where I am at now. I would now rather buy one nice new sample occasionally then continue to just buy every sample I see that hits my interest. I have decided not to buy for my collection anything that does not fit my current interest so it makes it easier. I tend to observe the other lines or types, but in the back of my head, I think "boy its sure a lot easier to keep focused".

 

[Onomea]

An enjoyable thread, with plenty of food for thought!

I think Mike’s story of the wine collector is very true -- that buying, selling, and then starting over -- is probably what it’s about for serious collectors. So much of the fun is in the chase! (Sorta like dealing with the ladies when we were young….)

I think, that if I do it right, at the end of the day, I will have given guns to my boys -- if they care for them -- or perhaps to friends if they seem to really like them, and maybe I will have sold some, but, at the end of the day, when my time is close, I’d like to be down to one gun.

Not sure which one it will be, or maybe I haven’t acquired it yet, but that seems right to me. One gun at the end of the day.

Probably scare the crap outta the doc when I pull it out from under my pillow on my deathbed.

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by Onomea:
but, at the end of the day, when my time is close, I’d like to be down to one gun.

You've heard of spending your kids inheritance? The other perspective is that your goal should be to have the last check you write before you die... bounce!

 

[RKmesa]

Mike and the rest:

Great thread! I'm in my early 40's, have a modest accumulation (less than 100), two teenage sons with little interest in my hobby and a wife who barely knows what end of the revolver is the business end. Therefore, some interesting food for thought.

 

[mikepriwer]

your goal should be to have the last check you write before you die... bounce!

That is one step further than - spending your last dollar on your last day ! I think
I like the idea of having your last check bounce -it probably ought to be a very large
one, at that !

I started this thread with the idea of exploring the notion of leaving guns to heirs.
It has evolved into something a bit more interesting, with some serious comments about
collecting itself, and trying to keep a focus. I'm pleased that it has taken this
turn, because it brings me to a very current event.

One of the principal areas I focus on is target revolvers, and particularly those that
belonged to important shooters. I start with the model of 1899, which is nice because
between all the barrel lengths and finishes, there are only 10 different variants. I'm
missing only one, and it may be impossible to find. So, I've started to add 1899 M&P's,
in a casual way.

Last week, I had the opportunity to acquire a 6 1/2" blue, in very good condition -
maybe 98%. It turns out that this gun was shipped in June of 1900 to Leroy Hillman at
West Point. He was a graduating senior that year, and stayed with the Army for the
rest of his life. He was promoted to Colonel in 1918, and was the commander of the
Rock Island Arsenal when he died of the flu in the big epidemic that year.

I didn't know any of this at that time I bought the gun - I thought it was just a
nice example of a 6 1/2" 1899 M&P . I don't think Hillman was a shooter - his focus
seems to have been Ordnance and Artillery. Clearly he didn't shoot this gun very much.
His military records do not indicate that he was married, so there may not have been
any heirs.

I tell this story, because now I have to think about - how does this gun fit into
my collection ? It's a great story, but its a different kind of story. One of our
collector-members, Lyle Larkworthy, has suggested that I should try to find a copy of
the 1900 yearbook, as an enhancement to owning this gun. You can see that this gun could
take me in a very different direction , from what I have been doing. I already have
a sub-set of my collection devoted to target guns shipped to LEO's . This is yet another
category, and something that I have to think further about.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[glypnir]

It will be interesting to see what happens as the great collectors die off and their guns hit the market. The new generation seems to be into semi-autos.

Mr. Carroll had an awesome collection of Smiths on his table at Tulsa. As I was admiring the little herd of 5 beautiful bicycle guns, I noticed that the only thing anyone was interested in/wanted to touch was the little semi-auto on the corner.

I was talking to Jim Supica Saturday night. He had a table with some of the guns up for auction in a week. He said that the guns that got the most interest by far were the Glock and the AR-15.

I wonder if in 5 or ten years there will be enough demand if a bunch of great collections hit the market.

I bought my 29-3 from a dealer from Bad-Axe Michigan. Someone was trying to sell him a Ruger revolver with a sight. The dealer said, as part of his reasoning for offering a low price, that he sold very few used pistols at his store. He said he would have to hold onto it until he came back to Tulsa.

So I wonder....

 

[DHENRY]

Hey, glypnir
In simple economic terms, 'less = more'.
Fewer great old revolvers = more dollars-per-gun.
Public gun shows don't mirror what really goes on in serious collector circles.
You're right about younger folks flocking to s.a.'s.
That's just a continuation of what's been going on for a long time.
If it'll make you feel better ( and I
hope it will!

), just check out the prices that early-to-mid-50's K-22's are bringing on the auction sites.
Common, high-production guns, and WAY out of the range of the 'spray-and-pray',
$ 300 crowd.
In my area, many dealers have scads of black plastic in their cases, and good for them.
They fill a need.
Likewise, a really collectible revolver usually disappears overnight, as smart merchants realize that one or two phone calls will bring serious buyers, cash in fist.
Two things to remember:
1) It doesn't take a lot of people to make a
market, just a moderate number with plenty
of money.
2) Everything we purchase has a cyclical 'value
curve'...It goes up, it goes down. If you
can buy low and sell high, great...but buy
because you like the guns, and don't
look back!
And one more thing...In my experience, the majority of serious collectors are quiet, non-internet-posting, private people.
There's a whole lot beneath the surface we see every day.
Keep the faith.
Don

 

[MikeyL]

Whooo, boy! This has been a great thread! I'd like to throw my 2 cents worth in if I might.

I came from a family where guns were available, but were generally just tools. My grandad and my dad were both good shots, but not 'shooters' per se. I inherited a 44-40 SAA from grandad, and a .300 Savage from my dad, both of which have already been passed off to my son, who truly appreciates the family connection. After a couple of divorces, my asset accumulation had been significantly altered, so I was looking for a way to build some equity in something, and I couldn't afford real estate or cars. My guns have become a great asset from a monetary standpoint, but great fun as well. Like some others on this thread, I have tried to explain the guns (what, where, when, why and how much). I have done this in two ways: First, I have an inventory of all the guns, updated monthly, on the computer, which includes what it is, serial number, any 'extras'(like ivory grips, etc.) and a median price, based upon insurance value.

I also have a photo file of each gun in a file box, with a note card with all of the vitals on the gun; where and when I got it, what I paid, any cool stuff (like a 1901 Colt revolver issued to a specific officer during the Philippine Uprising), and the like. This file helps with any value determinations now (and, hopefully, when I'm gone).

My wife and I have placed all of our assets in a family trust. She can keep or sell any of the guns save for a rifle and a pistol for each of my kids, their choice; they can always opt for them at any time, even now. I also suspect that a good auction would be the best gun clearinghouse; certainly, local dealers would not be able to handle the sales, at least I don't think so. I only collect old stuff anyway, and most youngsters seem to like the black plastic stuff...except for my 12-year old grandson, who has taken a liking to my Garand. I suspect he'll get that gun before I die, too...they are meant to be shot!

So...Mike Priwer, you are right on; they all will get sold. Hopefully the buyers are like us, and appreciate what they get.

Thanks for a good thread.

MikeyL
SWCA #2010

 

[glypnir]

Originally posted by DHENRY:
Hey, glypnir
In simple economic terms, 'less = more'.
Fewer great old revolvers = more dollars-per-gun.
Public gun shows don't mirror what really goes on in serious collector circles.
You're right about younger folks flocking to s.a.'s.
That's just a continuation of what's been going on for a long time.
If it'll make you feel better ( and I
hope it will!

), just check out the prices that early-to-mid-50's K-22's are bringing on the auction sites.
Common, high-production guns, and WAY out of the range of the 'spray-and-pray',
$ 300 crowd.
In my area, many dealers have scads of black plastic in their cases, and good for them.
They fill a need.
Likewise, a really collectible revolver usually disappears overnight, as smart merchants realize that one or two phone calls will bring serious buyers, cash in fist.
Two things to remember:
1) It doesn't take a lot of people to make a
market, just a moderate number with plenty
of money.
2) Everything we purchase has a cyclical 'value
curve'...It goes up, it goes down. If you
can buy low and sell high, great...but buy
because you like the guns, and don't
look back!
And one more thing...In my experience, the majority of serious collectors are quiet, non-internet-posting, private people.
There's a whole lot beneath the surface we see every day.
Keep the faith.
Don

I've actually figured that out somewhat by going to SWCA get-togethers in Tulsa, and by just watching what goes on in general. The dealers who know where the guns are seem to know where to sell them as well. In some ways it's a rather incestuous business.

But a lot of those guys are at an advanced state of age and decrepitude. So there could be a down cycle.

The other thing that could happen is that some folks from outside the country with money could get interested and buy them all up at outrageous prices. It's happened before all around the world.

What if the Arabs decide they want Smiths? You think Prince Bandar could afford a good collection?

Or what if the Chinese legalize firearms? They've got a few Yankee dollars, I've heard.

 

[rayb]

this thread is depressing.

I'm going to go out and buy something, anything so long as it shoots. Before the stores close tonight. If I can get to a town that has some guns for sale.

rayb

 

[bettis1]

A good thread. We've done this before but each time new thoughts are exposed. I can almost see the 3/4 century mile marker on the horizon and I have no heirs so I've spent a little time thinking about this in the middle of the night.

In my collections there are only a few guns that I have real emotional attachment to and most of those have very little intrinsic value: 1) my first .22 (Win. M69) that was given to me for safe keeping by my uncle as he shipped out to die in the invasion of Leyte. 2) my father's Remington M8 that was given to him by one of the principals in the capture of Machine Gun Kelley. 3&4) Colt SAA's that belonged to each of my grandfathers who were early settlers in Texas. 6) my wife's grandfather's M1911 .38 Super that he carried as a Texas sheriff in the '30's. Those are the guns which I will have some palpations about parting with...so I may just leave them there for the jackals when I'm gone.

The others are of greater economic worth and I haven't made the final decision about just how to dispose of them. I am spending more time comparing the catalogs of the various auction houses with some thought about contacting them. I may, in fact, send a request for proposal to several entities to see just what their best recommendation might be and make my decision based on the options they offer.

Bob

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by bettis1: ....2) my father's Remington M8 that was given to him by one of the principals in the capture of Machine Gun Kelley....Bob

Just as a minor correction the Name was Kelly and not Kelle[b/]y!!! In all the years that I have suffered with hundreds of folks managing to drop the last "e" out of my name and having to correct dozens if not hundreds of documents over the years; I think this is the first time I have noticed someone adding the "e" where it didn't belong. I could also make note of the fact that it was just such an 'error' by the Federal Government in the early 19teens that got the extra "e" added to my Grandfather's Land Grant Certificate. Since, it had taken something more than 9 months to get the "Original" from Washington DC and with little in the way of assurance that a correction would, in fact, be made properly; my Grandfather found it easier to go to the local Court and have his(our) name changed to included that second "e".

We all know that 'they' can't get the "L"

out of Washington so trying to get a lowly "e" out could be a Major undertaking!!!

 

[sigp220.45]

What a great, thought-provoking thread. I plan to leave my guns to my kids. My boys like to shoot, and my daughter's prized possession is my Dad's old Model 67 Winchester single shot. I'm not in the league some of you guys are in - I own a few dozen workaday type guns, but I like them.

The only really sentimental one is my grandfather's Fox Sterlingworth 20 gauge. I still shoot it at birds every now and then, and its the first inanimate object I'd grab if the house was on fire.

I hope my kiddos appreciate my duty guns when they get them. But if they don't, so be it.

I lost my Mom about a year ago, and just helped my Dad move in with my sister. I had to pack up dozens and dozens of bird figurines - they mean nothing to me, but my folks loved those creepy things. I'll probably keep one for sentimental reasons, but auction off the rest. If the same thing happens to my guns, I guess I won't be in any position to complain.

 

[Onomea]

Originally posted by bettis1:
... I may, in fact, send a request for proposal to several entities to see just what their best recommendation might be and make my decision based on the options they offer.

Bob

That's a very good idea, Bob.

 

[kwill1911]

Originally posted by bettis1:
A good thread. We've done this before but each time new thoughts are exposed. I can almost see the 3/4 century mile marker on the horizon and I have no heirs so I've spent a little time thinking about this in the middle of the night.

In my collections there are only a few guns that I have real emotional attachment to and most of those have very little intrinsic value: 1) my first .22 (Win. M69) that was given to me for safe keeping by my uncle as he shipped out to die in the invasion of Leyte. 2) my father's Remington M8 that was given to him by one of the principals in the capture of Machine Gun Kelley. 3&4) Colt SAA's that belonged to each of my grandfathers who were early settlers in Texas. 6) my wife's grandfather's M1911 .38 Super that he carried as a Texas sheriff in the '30's. Those are the guns which I will have some palpations about parting with...so I may just leave them there for the jackals when I'm gone.

The others are of greater economic worth and I haven't made the final decision about just how to dispose of them. I am spending more time comparing the catalogs of the various auction houses with some thought about contacting them. I may, in fact, send a request for proposal to several entities to see just what their best recommendation might be and make my decision based on the options they offer.

Bob

Bob,

I'm shocked, dismayed and filled with horror! At what point did I drop out of your will? I'm still willing to be adopted! Seriously, though, your post is thoughtful but mildly depressing when I think about those family heirlooms with no place to go. In such a case I'm a firm believer of creating heirs. Surely there is a young associate of yours that you can cultivate into a budding collector and can take over the stewardship of those guns when you die.

On a related note, we all think about the hard assets to some extent but I'm amazed how little attention is paid to the intellectual property developed by some of the long-time collectors. I know authors of well-respected books on gun collecting that have made no provision whatsoever with respect to their research notes, pictures, documents and other ephemera that has real value. There are many amoung us who have developed specific expertise but never quite get around to writing the article or book. Yet the material is there. I hate to think about the knowledge assets that are lost when a serious student/collector dies.

 

[bettis1]

Thanks for the correction Mike. I knew the correct spelling of "Kelly". Just a lapse in attention to detail. The man who gave the M8 to my dad was E.E. Kirkpatrick who was the 'bag man' who delivered the ransom money for the Urschel kidnaping. "Mr. Kirk" was also my aunt's father. His books "Crimes Paradise" and "Voices from Alcatraz" relate the entire episode.

Kevin, I didn't remove you from the will...I noted that the folks who may hold the auction should send you a copy of their catalog by first class mail

. Actually, knowing your affinity for M1911's, I'd be happy to send the old sheriff's ivory gripped .38 Super to you. Only problem is that my wife would shoot me with it before I could get it packed up.

Regarding your comments about intellectual property, I have to agree. Many years ago I put together a pretty impressive collection of Colt 1848-49 Pocket Models. The author of the bible on those guns was Paull. L. Schumacher. Mr. Schumacher put together his data base long before the age of computers and used 3x5 index cards. My brother and I had also built a data base of several thousand examples of those guns so when Paull died, I contacted his heirs to see if they were interested in selling his records with the intent of updating his book with my records. I met a dead end and as far and as I know his records are no longer existing.

Bob

 

[rburg]

This is all becoming so confusing. There are some truths that do surface. First and foremost, its a very rare person that has offspring that share the same interests. Worse than that, giving heirs money may be the worst thing you can do (it makes them lazy.) Many of us value certain guns for reasons other than pure economics. I have some I'd like to pass along to a blood grandson (and I know that may generate some hard feelings.) But one thing I've discovered in life is that we rarely appreciate things given to us as much as things we've worked and strived for.

On to the intellectual property stuff. I was going to type something witty, but that always evades me. I was thinking along the lines of the total value of my notes, those of Charlie Sherrill, Cajun, Jim Shugart....

But I can say that I'm available if anyone wants to put me in their will. What I'd really like is the photo directory out of Jim's computer!!

But thinking about it, I'd probably need Cajuns and Houston Ricks services if we moved it across state lines!

 

[gold40]

I used to wonder what would happen when the WWII veterans died and their Luger collections becam available. That has occured and the prices of Luger has continued to rise.

Probably the same will occur with S&W's as newer, younger, X-generation gun collectors replace us old farts.

JERRY

 

[mikepriwer]

Bob, Kevin, and others

Indeed, it is the case that, unless one writes down everything that they know, it is
all lost when they depart. This is not a new problem, but has been with us since the
dawn of time. When doing my graduate work, my thesis advisor instructed us to keep
a detailed daily log of exactly everything that was done - each day. It had to have
a carbon copy, be dated and signed, and not have any blank lines. This was, of course,
research training, but it did indeed capture all the information.

The original point of this thread was to comment on inherited property, in this case
specifically guns. It was more directed to those who think that their children or
grandchildren are going to be enthralled with inheriting their guns. Over the course of
this thread, it has taken some different turns, one of those being discussions about
planning the orderly disposition of our collections.

As long as their is a plan, or some knowledgeable person to turn to, I don't think
it necessary to prematurely dispose of a collection. Certainly its nice to leave a
clean estate, but generally one never knows when the end is coming. I'm reminded of
Gary Garbrecht, who died very unexpectely at a relatively young age. He certainly was
not expecting that to happen, and as we all know, his wife was left to dispose of a
lot of guns. Other than his dying, it wasn't all that big of a deal. The S&WCA
privately auctioned off a large part of the collection, and the rest went to Amoskeag
Auction. Neither of these efforts was trivial, but it all went faily well. He did have
a large collection.

My point here is that if one feels like selling a large part, or all, of a collection,
then that is what should be done. But, if one does not want to do that right now, then
I would argue that it should not be done. With any kind of minimal planning, it will
work out.

Later, Mike Priwer