ATF attempting to come after private sellers...

[BSA1]

And now they are trying to change the definitions AGAIN to say that if you sell a few guns for more than you paid for them YOU ARE IN EFFECT AN FFL and should have a FFL license. The same FFL license that they went after eliminating just a few years ago. What they called a "kitchen table FFL".

So what do they want? For everyone who buys and sells a few guns at a small profit to have an FFL license? Or to eliminate FFL licenses for people who really aren't in the "business" of buying and selling firearms?

Or do they just want to discourage all buying and selling of firearms PERIOD?

The answer seems pretty obvious considering the conflicting messages that the BATFE is and has been sending.

I see the anti-2A groups and the BATF strategy as;

1. Cut off the head of the snake by stopping the manufacturing of new firearms. They are trying to do this by passing laws allowing manufacturers to be sued for “wrongful” deaths as a result of firearm companies advertising, lack of enough “safety” features, making “weapons of war” for sale to civilians, etc.

2. Disrupt the distribution channel for sale of firearms by eliminating FFL dealers.

3. Require the individuals of all private sales and transfer of ownership of firearm to undergo “universal background checks” to be done through a FFL dealer. This will be increasingly difficult due to #2.

3. Backdoor registration of gun owners through record keeping of universal background checks, requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, permit to own certain types of firearms.

4. Outright ban on firearms and accessories.

5. Pass laws putting shooting ranges out of business. Outdoor shooting ranges can be closed by zoning law changes. Indoor ranges by taxation, OSHA inspections for air quality, etc.

6. Pass laws making passing down ownership of guns without government approval when the gun owner dies illegal (inheritance). Since the guns are now part of the estate they will also be subject to taxation and failure to include them in the estate is now a IRS problem meaning a audit of the deceased entire estate. (Boy-o-boy. Imagine how picky and through that will be).

7. Expanding the teaching of anti-gun programs in public schools. Reward children for reporting adults that may own illegal guns, didn’t receive government permission such as licensing, buying and selling of guns without background checks, having unregistered guns.

The adults that will be reported will be mostly parents, grandparents and close relatives. Angry ex-spouses looking for revenge will report them, neighbors will turn on neighbors.

8. Create a cabinet level position of propaganda. This will be different than Secretary of Education. This person will be solely responsible for coordinating a anti-gun program through the media (TV, radio, newspaper), controlling the Internet, public education, public messaging such as PSA, billboards, eliminating pro-gun discussion forums such as this one.

9. Direct the DOJ to actively prosecute gun owners. Let the BATF go totally rogue. Conduct well publicized large police raids on retired and the average middle class gun owners. A body count will be desired. (See #8).

10. Control State and Local Governments through Federal funding and the threat to reduce funding.

11. What else am I missing?

 

[22hipower]

At least 2 shops I do transfers through have a second person go through the paperwork to verify everything. They initial the paperwork as well.

But do they know what they're looking at, or where to look? Bought a nice old (1923) M&P from the Cabelas fine gun room awhile back. The manager checked the sales associate's paperwork, and it was checked again at the cashier. And still they recorded the assembly number instead of the SN on the butt as the SN.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[686-380]

Should we require background checks for the private sale of automobiles???

Devil's advocate here.

A Two-way background check may alleviate any potential fraud concerns, by either party.

Jus' sayin'.

 

[BC38]

But do they know what they're looking at, or where to look? Bought a nice old (1923) M&P from the Cabelas fine gun room awhile back. The manager checked the sales associate's paperwork, and it was checked again at the cashier. And still they recorded the assembly number instead of the SN on the butt as the SN.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

PERFECT EXAMPLE:
So now, should the BATFE yank FFL from Cabelas?
Apparently some around here seem to think so.

 

[Muss Muggins]

PERFECT EXAMPLE:
So now, should the BATFE yank FFL from Cabela’s?

From that particular one, yes. Until they learn the minutiae that most here argue ad infinitum. Basic firearm identification . . .

 

[Ackley1952]

I'm all for common sense rule making, but as of yet, I haven't found any.

please dont use the words common sense in describing legislation, when is the last time government did something for you that was good? if congress would continue to collect their salaries but go home and pass no future legislation it could be a great start in rebuilding this country.

 

[tmd17]

... when I attend shows out of state and watch one guy just handing his handgun to someone he doesn't know, it's frightening. ...

Please don't call me Karen!!!

I won't call you a Karen, but I will offer you a ribbon and a safe space.

 

[stansdds]

I hear the rattling of a lock being prepared for this thread.

 

[BC38]

I see the anti-2A groups and the BATF strategy as;

1. Cut off the head of the snake by stopping the manufacturing of new firearms. They are trying to do this by passing laws allowing manufacturers to be sued for “wrongful” deaths as a result of firearm companies advertising, lack of enough “safety” features, making “weapons of war” for sale to civilians, etc.

2. Disrupt the distribution channel for sale of firearms by eliminating FFL dealers.

3. Require the individuals of all private sales and transfer of ownership of firearm to undergo “universal background checks” to be done through a FFL dealer. This will be increasingly difficult due to #2.

3. Backdoor registration of gun owners through record keeping of universal background checks, requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, permit to own certain types of firearms.

4. Outright ban on firearms and accessories.

5. Pass laws putting shooting ranges out of business. Outdoor shooting ranges can be closed by zoning law changes. Indoor ranges by taxation, OSHA inspections for air quality, etc.

6. Pass laws making passing down ownership of guns without government approval when the gun owner dies illegal (inheritance). Since the guns are now part of the estate they will also be subject to taxation and failure to include them in the estate is now a IRS problem meaning a audit of the deceased entire estate. (Boy-o-boy. Imagine how picky and through that will be).

7. Expanding the teaching of anti-gun programs in public schools. Reward children for reporting adults that may own illegal guns, didn’t receive government permission such as licensing, buying and selling of guns without background checks, having unregistered guns.

The adults that will be reported will be mostly parents, grandparents and close relatives. Angry ex-spouses looking for revenge will report them, neighbors will turn on neighbors.

8. Create a cabinet level position of propaganda. This will be different than Secretary of Education. This person will be solely responsible for coordinating a anti-gun program through the media (TV, radio, newspaper), controlling the Internet, public education, public messaging such as PSA, billboards, eliminating pro-gun discussion forums such as this one.

9. Direct the DOJ to actively prosecute gun owners. Let the BATF go totally rogue. Conduct well publicized large police raids on retired and the average middle class gun owners. A body count will be desired. (See #8).

10. Control State and Local Governments through Federal funding and the threat to reduce funding.

11. What else am I missing?

Sounds like a pretty comprehensive summary of their plans...

 

[old tanker]

From that particular one, yes. Until they learn the minutiae that most here argue ad infinitum. Basic firearm identification . . .

According to the Agent that inspected us at work the official number of the weapon that the transfer agent sent it to you under is enough to record and to then transfer it on. This is the right way even if the license holder who sent it to you used the wrong number. She did say it was right to also include on the record the number which the transfer agent should have used. How is that for being plain as mud?

The bad thing is if you rely on the ATF's advice, and DOJ decides it's "wrong," it's YOUR problem.

 

[BSA1]

I see the anti-2A groups and the BATF strategy as;

1. Cut off the head of the snake by stopping the manufacturing of new firearms. They are trying to do this by passing laws allowing manufacturers to be sued for “wrongful” deaths as a result of firearm companies advertising, lack of enough “safety” features, making “weapons of war” for sale to civilians, etc.

2. Disrupt the distribution channel for sale of firearms by eliminating FFL dealers.

3. Require the individuals of all private sales and transfer of ownership of firearm to undergo “universal background checks” to be done through a FFL dealer. This will be increasingly difficult due to #2.

3. Backdoor registration of gun owners through record keeping of universal background checks, requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, permit to own certain types of firearms.

4. Outright ban on firearms and accessories.

5. Pass laws putting shooting ranges out of business. Outdoor shooting ranges can be closed by zoning law changes. Indoor ranges by taxation, OSHA inspections for air quality, etc.

6. Pass laws making passing down ownership of guns without government approval when the gun owner dies illegal (inheritance). Since the guns are now part of the estate they will also be subject to taxation and failure to include them in the estate is now a IRS problem meaning a audit of the deceased entire estate. (Boy-o-boy. Imagine how picky and through that will be).

7. Expanding the teaching of anti-gun programs in public schools. Reward children for reporting adults that may own illegal guns, didn’t receive government permission such as licensing, buying and selling of guns without background checks, having unregistered guns.

The adults that will be reported will be mostly parents, grandparents and close relatives. Angry ex-spouses looking for revenge will report them, neighbors will turn on neighbors.

8. Create a cabinet level position of propaganda. This will be different than Secretary of Education. This person will be solely responsible for coordinating a anti-gun program through the media (TV, radio, newspaper), controlling the Internet, public education, public messaging such as PSA, billboards, eliminating pro-gun discussion forums such as this one.

9. Direct the DOJ to actively prosecute gun owners. Let the BATF go totally rogue. Conduct well publicized large police raids on retired and the average middle class gun owners. A body count will be desired. (See #8).

10. Control State and Local Governments through Federal funding and the threat to reduce funding.

11. Just remember #11. See below.

12. Bonus strategy.

11. Drive the NRA into bankruptcy by filing lawsuits and challenging their legal charter. Start with the biggest elephant in the room following by smaller pro-gun organizations such as GOA and SAF.

12. Divide and conquer gun owners. The bumpfire stock is a excellent example. Now the BATF is using the pistol braces to create division between gun owners.

Older gun owners will be inclined to support bans by the BATF. Consider how many posts we see everyday complaining about young shooters buying and enjoying “plastic” guns. Read the posts criticizing owning the AR-15. Support will also be strong with older gun owners that have brought all the guns they want and no longer or rarely shoot.

13. Need to think some more.

 

[pawngal]

Back to the original topic of FFL inspections and license revocations.
Yes, more licenses are being revoked.
Yes, some need to be revoked.
Yes, some are being revoked for minor mistakes or clerical errors or omissions.
FFL dealers should join the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) They sponsor ZOOM meetings to keep dealers up to date on the latest goings on of the ATF.
The original intent of the ATF was to inspect every FFL dealer every 5 years. This has never come close to happening. I am a prime example of this. Have had an FFL for 32 years, had one inspection and that was over 25 years ago. There are hundreds of dealers out there that have no idea they are doing some little thing or two wrong, then the ATF sweeps in and shuts them down. Dealers need to take responsibility and do it right!
If you don't know, ask.
Years ago dealers were given an opportunity during an inspection to correct any errors, not so anymore.
Off my soapbox.......

 

[BC38]

Back to the original topic of FFL inspections and license revocations.
Yes, more licenses are being revoked.
Yes, some need to be revoked.
Yes, some are being revoked for minor mistakes or clerical errors or omissions.
FFL dealers should join the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) They sponsor ZOOM meetings to keep dealers up to date on the latest goings on of the ATF.
The original intent of the ATF was to inspect every FFL dealer every 5 years. This has never come close to happening. I am a prime example of this. Have had an FFL for 32 years, had one inspection and that was over 25 years ago. There are hundreds of dealers out there that have no idea they are doing some little thing or two wrong, then the ATF sweeps in and shuts them down. Dealers need to take responsibility and do it right!
If you don't know, ask.
Years ago dealers were given an opportunity during an inspection to correct any errors, no so anymore.
Off my soapbox.......

The trouble with yanking licenses for minor mistakes or clerical errors is that pretty soon there won't be many FFLs left. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES - at least those of us who aren't perfect.
If they don't know that they are doing some little thing or two wrong, then they likely don't even know that they need to ask. You don't know what you don't know.
The fewer FFLs the less competition, the more they are going to charge for their services. Simple supply and demand.
All part of the grand plan to make firearms purchases as onerous, difficult, and expensive as possible.
And that's a good idea?!?

 

[Dvus]

Universal background checks are simple. If someone is a felon, note such on their driver’s license or state ID. Or give private citizens access to the NICS phone number/information.

^^^^^ THIS!

 

[pawngal]

The trouble with yanking licenses for minor mistakes or clerical errors is that pretty soon there won't be many FFLs left. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES - at least those of us who aren't perfect.
If they don't know that they are doing some little thing or two wrong, then they likely don't even know that they need to ask. You don't know what you don't know.
The fewer FFLs the less competition, the more they are going to charge for their services. Simple supply and demand.
All part of the grand plan to make firearms purchases as onerous, difficult, and expensive as possible.
And that's a good idea?!?

No, not a good idea.
My point is that FFL dealers need to educate themselves and their help to do it right. Resources are available. To start, read every word in the instruction sheets included with the 4473.
This is no time to be complacent about one's business for the reasons you mentioned.

This link to youtube videos by FFL Consultants gives all the tips and info for FFLs to stay in compliance.
FFL Consultants - YouTube

 

[mrcvs]

I have seen national big name auction houses list a firearm not by a serial number but by assembly number because they were not aware the serial number was obscured by the grips. Another one listed a revolver by its assembly number because the serial number had been filed off.

Are they simply going to revoke FFL privileges from even these big name auction houses? Or, after the fact, how would you know the auction house listed on its paperwork the assembly number and not the serial number without the firearm in question in hand?

 

[AlHunt]

Due to your nasty comments, I'm going to vote for it!

That's kind of the point, Dave. It's not a bill or a law, it's another administrative rule making by ATF. You don't get a voice (because they'll ignore the comments they're required to allow) or a vote. They want to just shove it down your throat.

I'm guessing you probably don't mind that, either.

 

[AlHunt]

If they can't buy them, they will steal them..........how you gonna do a background check on that...........

We'll just make a law. </sarcasm>

 

[Shibadog]

What legal reason is ATFE using to shut down all of the gun stores in KC? Your statement is likely not based in fact . . .

I think it’s all over. The new head of ATF has called for and is implementing a new “zero tolerence” policy on ANY “error” on the forms used during a purchase. If one single mistake is made on a single form that’s a “willful” and could cause a license to be revoked. Example: a purchaser uses an abbreviation instead of a name-violation. Miss a part of the date(11/29 vs 11/29/23) violation. One local family owned shop that had been in business for more than 50 years was recently shut down for just those things. Only expect more to come in the future.

 

[pawngal]

The ATF has been going around KC trying to shut down all the gun shops lately. Around 50 that I've heard of so far. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a nationwide operation, but they are trying to keep it on the down low. Another illegal gun control ploy.

The ATF is not "shutting down" 50 gun shop around KC, knowing the limited number of ATF compliance inspections that are happening I doubt they are even doing that many inspections in a limited area.
OK, here are the real facts which anyone can find on the ATF website.
The Kansas City field office includes Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, southern Illinois
July 2023, 74 inspections, 1 warning, 1 revocation
June 2023, 105 inspections, 2 warnings, 1 revocation
May 2023, 105 inspections, 2 warnings, 3 revocations.