ATF Worksheet 4999

[Tu_S]

Need to ask, does anyone have a braced pistol that is not an SBR by the requirements of this form?

Really not asking about the right or wrong on this, just wondering if any braced pistol can actually be a braced pistol anymore.

FWIW, the brace is what it is and I'm prepared for this (although it's going to be kind of expensive), but living in IL where we have the strange rule that you cannot own an SBR unless you have a CNR Type 3 FFL, it's going to cause a lot of problems for many of my friends.

 

[Rodan]

It's pretty clear that form was written with the express purpose of declaring any braced pistol to be an SBR. And there's still the provision that an ATF agent can decide anything is an SBR regardless of the form.

 

[s&wchad]

This is just a proposed rule change by the ATF at this point. The ATF has flip-flopped on the issue of pistol braces over the years, but they currently do not fall under the NFA.

This most recent proposal received 60,000 public comments mostly opposing the change and the House of Representatives sent a letter with 90 signatures rejecting it.

ATF resurrecting proposed regulation of SBR's and braces

Pistol Braces & The ATF: What You Need to Know - Pew Pew Tactical

Edit to add:
S&W is still offering the M&P pistol in .22LR and 5.56 NATO and both come with arm braces.

M&P15 PISTOL | Smith & Wesson

M&P15 PISTOL | Smith & Wesson

 

[John_M52]

There is another option to a braced pistol which places the firearm in the NFA "other" category. So not a pistol, not a rifle, not an SBR. As an "other" it does not require an ATF stamp or pistol purchase permit. There is a company in NJ called Model Materiel that manufactures them (to be sold as an other in NJ it has to be manufactured in NJ apparently). It also has to have a forward grip (so that it is intended to be shot using both hands). So it has a brace, a fore grip, etc but not an SBR. They have been selling them for a few years and have a large police customer base and haven't been shut down yet. They make them in 9 and 5.56.

MODMAT WARTIME SBF - Modern Materiel

 

[HankB]

Rumor has it the BATmen will finally be issuing their official new interpretation of the law regarding braced pistols and SBRs this coming December. Right now all we have is speculation - maybe all braced pistols will become SBRs, maybe they won't. Maybe if it shipped with a brace a pistol will remain an SBR even if you take the brace off, maybe it won't. Maybe they'll waive the $200 tax if you register your already-owned braced pistol as an SBR, maybe they won't.

All speculation at this point. And in view of recent Supreme Court decisions regarding the limits of bureaucrats to "make law" there are some doubts about the ATF's authority to redefine braced pistols as SBRs. They may do so anyway and say "So sue us, we have the budget for it." Any action by ATF will probably result in SOME sort of litigation. I don't know anyone who wants to be the test case.

 

[johngalt]

This is just a proposed rule change by the ATF at this point. The ATF has flip-flopped on the issue of pistol braces over the years, but they currently do not fall under the NFA.

This most recent proposal received 60,000 public comments mostly opposing the change and the House of Representatives sent a letter with 90 signatures rejecting it.

ATF resurrecting proposed regulation of SBR's and braces

Pistol Braces & The ATF: What You Need to Know - Pew Pew Tactical

Edit to add:
S&W is still offering the M&P pistol in .22LR and 5.56 NATO and both come with arm braces.

M&P15 PISTOL | Smith & Wesson

M&P15 PISTOL | Smith & Wesson

Just looking at those catalog items, I don't know what the difference is between those an SBR, other than if the receiver was originally designated as a 'pistol' or 'rifle'.

But then I have never understood the concept that an SBR somehow is 'more evil' and needs special restrictions. Why?

The most common explanation I've seen is it allows a pistol to be fired more accurately. Why is that a bad thing? By that logic, my bullseye pistols should also be SBRs.

 

[Tu_S]

There is another option to a braced pistol which places the firearm in the NFA "other" category. So not a pistol, not a rifle, not an SBR. As an "other" it does not require an ATF stamp or pistol purchase permit. There is a company in NJ called Model Materiel that manufactures them (to be sold as an other in NJ it has to be manufactured in NJ apparently). It also has to have a forward grip (so that it is intended to be shot using both hands). So it has a brace, a fore grip, etc but not an SBR. They have been selling them for a few years and have a large police customer base and haven't been shut down yet. They make them in 9 and 5.56.

MODMAT WARTIME SBF - Modern Materiel

I see two issues with trying to use the AOW classification.

First is they are going after braces, with the rules being proposed specifically classifying them as SBRs based on the characteristics of the brace. I suspect the guys you mentioned in NJ will have to stop putting braces on their products if this goes through to keep them as AOW.

Second, while the transfer "tax" of an AOW is $5, to convert something into one still cost $200. Personally I never thought this made any sense since IMHO adding a vertical grip would make things safer, especially if you are using a single point sling and no brace on something like a CZ Scorpion.

As a manufacturer you can just include the initial cost in the sales price (and I believe the cost is actually a part of the manufacturers FFL fees and not on individual guns produced, but I'm not 100% sure on this.) The consumer pays it and the additional $5 at the time of the sale, but it really doesn't help those of us who already own something and want to keep a brace.

Looking at what I have and what is proposed, nothing would clearly pass as a pistol, and I can't think of anything with a brace that would.

 

[Tu_S]

Started this thread to ask what people have, and how the proposed changes would affect them.

Reality on this, I just added this to my collection, kind of because I'm old enough to remember the various changes that have happened over the years, where if you have it you're kind of okay.

The ironic thing is I probably would not have put this together if they were not proposing the changes to the rules and got something else.

FWIW, DB15 pistol with 10.5" barrel, along with the spare parts I had sitting around, the buffer tube/brace, SPARC2, and Magpul MBUS sights.

Guess I did the exact opposite of what the politicians wanted for their proposed changes, and will deal with what will come

 

[AlwaysArmed]

Maybe if it shipped with a brace a pistol will remain an SBR even if you take the brace off, maybe it won't. Maybe they'll waive the $200 tax if you register your already-owned braced pistol as an SBR, maybe they won't

That's kind of the question I had. I was wondering what was "illegal". If you bought a stripped lower and assembled an AR pistol, is the pistol brace illegal? Or, is the firearm legal without the pistol brace attached.
More to the point, if you bought a complete AR pistol, is every part if that pistol illegal? Or just the lower? Or just the pistol brace?
It would make more sense if the AFT would simply clarify what an AR pistol is, or isn't. I guess that would make too much sense.
AA

 

[Racer X]

Just remember, only about 400 die in US mass shootings a year, and only a small portion by "assault rifles". Peanut allergies kill 1,400 a year according to one source. But we have to have our Snickers bars.

This won't even register on the statistics. But that's not the point.

I noticed that 3x reflex sights aren't mentioned. They aren't red dots, nor are they magnifiers. Hmmmmmm. Just a thought. With the right brace, and a reflex sight, you might make it under 4 points.

 

[SmithNut]

Question

Not seeing anything about this in the last month or so, was wondering if the ATF is getting any closer to determining if a braced pistol will need to become a regulated device.

Have seen several posts around the net saying there would possibly be a moratorium and allow folks to register as an NFA device w/o the $200 tax stamp, but nothing recent (unless I've just missed it).

Any update on this, or if someone has a link to any ATF info on this subject please post a link, or send to me via PM.

Thanks in advance... !!

 

[03hemi]

Just ignore it until after November, that's what "they're" doing.

 

[mckenney99]

Last thing I read indicated they intended to "unveil" the new rules and the proposed "amnesty" for braced SBR NFA Registrations in December. I think they are purposely keeping it low profile and the proposed rule/procedure "leaked" against their wishes PRIOR to the midterm elections.

 

[Rodan]

IIRC they pushed everything back, but can't recall if it's December or January.

Current crystal ball reading by the 'net has ATF offering "amnesty" registration, but they are also expected to ask questions about the gun being registered, and may even require photos to be submitted. Many believe they will pull the same thing they did with Form 1 Suppressors earlier this year and declare most of the applications were already "short barreled rifles" and require surrender/destruction.

Look up "washington gun law" on youtube... they have some pretty good videos on the subject.

 

[SmithNut]

Thanks all for the update...

Will check into the youtube info....