Atomic reverse wad cutters

[oberon]

Now wait a minute - really? I remember Dean Grinnell writing about this when I was a lad. He must have thought he was a real devil with some of the goofy stuff he came up with, but I enjoyed it. He was an entertaining writer.

I'd much prefer more modern ammunition. If relying on a handload, the old H&G 051 style bullet with the wide, flat nose running along at about 900 FPS would be nothing to sneeze at.

Dean Grennell was (is) one of my all time favorite gunwriters.
Amongst the new cool stuff, was a solid base of excellent ballistic fundamentals. And some of the 'new cool stuff' from the old GunWorld days is standard protocol nowadays.
That guy was way ahead of his time.

 

[moosedog]

I remember those being loaded up in the early 1970's.
If they were any good, they would be in use today.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I experimented extensively with reversed HBWC loads during the 1970's and 1980's. Never once did I experience a "blow-through" or bullet lodged in the bore. I did find that accuracy declined rapidly as pressures and velocities were increased. Also, the soft lead swaged HBWC bullets are prone to heavy leading (bore, forcing cone, cylinder face, frame interior, cylinders), particularly with heavier charges of powder. A final observation was that these loads can be quite difficult to load rapidly, having no tapered bullet surface to guide the rounds into the chambers.

My conclusion was that the reversed HBWC loads were very useful in the short-barreled revolvers, which cannot make use of the ballistic potentials of higher pressure loads anyway and are thus limited to relatively low velocities. I found that the standard target load of 3.0 grains of Bullseye, standard primer, and bullet seated nearly flush with a firm roll crimp, always gave excellent accuracy and provided very impressive expansion in any media tried. Shot 5 rounds from a Model 36 into the chest cavity of a dead antelope at about 6 feet range, then dressed the animal normally. Recovered all 5 bullets from the lungs, retained weight was consistently 90%-plus, and expansion was consistently to .700"-plus.

I was also present for an autopsy performed by a very experienced pathologist, subject was a grown man shot once in the lower abdomen with one round of reversed HBWC fired from a Model 36 at about 4 to 6 feet. Doc described it as one of the most devastating handgun wounds he had ever seen.

I still load these for use in my J-frame revolvers. Very modest recoil, minimal muzzle flash or blast, and very good performance at close ranges.

 

[hotrod150]

.... they are unproven.
Just a pricy gimmick.

Funny that you would call the reversed wadcutter load (which apparently is NOT unproven, per the above posts) a "pricey gimmick", yet recommend a load with the fancy name "golden saber" which sells for a buck a round or more.

 

[Cal44]

I don't know much about Atomic Ammo as a company, but in this era of excess lawyers, I suspect they tested their load so it wouldn't separate and lodge in the barrel.

As to effectiveness, I figure figured a reverse WC would be at least as effective as the FBI load which many here use. It seems like pretty much the same thing.

 

[ATOMIC AMMO]

Atomic Ammo

Hi folks, Atomic Ammo here. I want to share a little info with you experts so that you can all be in the know.

First off, thank you all for your interest in our products. Our 38 Special is top notch and I carry a J frame loaded with upside down wadcutters almost everyday. I will not give out any of our proprietary information- it took quite a while and thousands of dollars to resurrect and improve this classic load, but I will confirm the following.

As an FFL-6 ammunition manufacturer- we are able to work with other ammunition and bullet manufacturers or their distributors and load almost any bullet that we want in almost any caliber.

We have access to various lab equipment, programs and test materials including various ballistic media ranging from the newest and most modern simulants to old fashioned 10% gel and wet newspaper.

After considerable research and development we found that very few, if any of the SUPER HIGH TECH MODERN JACKETED HOLLOW POINT MANSTOPPER bullets from the biggest companies were able to expand in the most modern gels when fired from REAL WORLD SNUB NOSED REVOLVERS. This is why we also tested and decided to use effective LEAD bullets.

Performance was further diminished if several layers of denim were draped over the test media to simulate heavy clothing. Performance from our competitors ammo was only acceptable by our standards when fired from 4 inch revolvers or larger guns. Even then, most of our competitors loads were roughly equal to our Atomic Ammo loads from snubbies- the revolvers most popular for concealed carry.

The ATOMIC 38 SPL+P load was the ONLY 38 SPL+P load we tested from SNUB NOSED revolvers that would reliably expand in our modern test materials.

The factory 38SPL+P loads from several well respected makers lacked the oomph to expand when fired from snub nosed/short barreled revolvers. Their smaller hollow cavities, thick, mega super expensive high tech jackets and lower velocities and lower weights kept them from opening. These other companies' bullets did however penetrate considerably. Perhaps so much that they would likely OVERPENETRATE and risk striking unintended persons or property behind them. They had similar effect to a full metal jacket bullet, at considerably more cost and risk.

Our bullets have been tested and loaded at 357 magnum pressures and velocities and do NOT blow the centers out and do NOT blow the skirts off in the barrel. They are excellent performers and have been loaded in such a manner as to keep the bullet hollow point forward without key-holing at the most common self defensive shooting distances. We average over 90% of our bullets remain hollow base forward at distances of 25 yards/75 feet from snub nosed revolvers.

For more info please check out our website then tell your friends about us!

Atomic Ammunition - Precision Crafted Match Grade Ammunition

 

[Pigirondan]

Hi folks, Atomic Ammo here. I want to share a little info with you experts so that you can all be in the know.

First off, thank you all for your interest in our products. Our 38 Special is top notch and I carry a J frame loaded with upside down wadcutters almost everyday. I will not give out any of our proprietary information- it took quite a while and thousands of dollars to resurrect and improve this classic load, but I will confirm the following.

As an FFL-6 ammunition manufacturer- we are able to work with other ammunition and bullet manufacturers or their distributors and load almost any bullet that we want in almost any caliber.

We have access to various lab equipment, programs and test materials including various ballistic media ranging from the newest and most modern simulants to old fashioned 10% gel and wet newspaper.

After considerable research and development we found that very few, if any of the SUPER HIGH TECH MODERN JACKETED HOLLOW POINT MANSTOPPER bullets from the biggest companies were able to expand in the most modern gels when fired from REAL WORLD SNUB NOSED REVOLVERS. This is why we also tested and decided to use effective LEAD bullets.

Performance was further diminished if several layers of denim were draped over the test media to simulate heavy clothing. Performance from our competitors ammo was only acceptable by our standards when fired from 4 inch revolvers or larger guns. Even then, most of our competitors loads were roughly equal to our Atomic Ammo loads from snubbies- the revolvers most popular for concealed carry.

The ATOMIC 38 SPL+P load was the ONLY 38 SPL+P load we tested from SNUB NOSED revolvers that would reliably expand in our modern test materials.

The factory 38SPL+P loads from several well respected makers lacked the oomph to expand when fired from snub nosed/short barreled revolvers. Their smaller hollow cavities, thick, mega super expensive high tech jackets and lower velocities and lower weights kept them from opening. These other companies' bullets did however penetrate considerably. Perhaps so much that they would likely OVERPENETRATE and risk striking unintended persons or property behind them. They had similar effect to a full metal jacket bullet, at considerably more cost and risk.

Our bullets have been tested and loaded at 357 magnum pressures and velocities and do NOT blow the centers out and do NOT blow the skirts off in the barrel. They are excellent performers and have been loaded in such a manner as to keep the bullet hollow point forward without key-holing at the most common self defensive shooting distances. We average over 90% of our bullets remain hollow base forward at distances of 25 yards/75 feet from snub nosed revolvers.

For more info please check out our website then tell your friends about us!

Atomic Ammunition - Precision Crafted Match Grade Ammunition

Well then...

 

[brucev]

Re: AA reply. Thank you for this post. Doubtless developing narrow task oriented ammunition requires some issues/concerns to considered primary with others rendered secondary. No one single bullet/load combination is going to ever be the one be all to end all load that will satisfy the concerns of everyone in every possible situation imaginable. Wish you every success in this as well as your other developments.

 

[pistola]

reversed HBWC loads

I experimented extensively with reversed HBWC loads during the 1970's and 1980's. Never once did I experience a "blow-through" or bullet lodged in the bore. I did find that accuracy declined rapidly as pressures and velocities were increased. Also, the soft lead swaged HBWC bullets are prone to heavy leading (bore, forcing cone, cylinder face, frame interior, cylinders), particularly with heavier charges of powder. A final observation was that these loads can be quite difficult to load rapidly, having no tapered bullet surface to guide the rounds into the chambers.

My conclusion was that the reversed HBWC loads were very useful in the short-barreled revolvers, which cannot make use of the ballistic potentials of higher pressure loads anyway and are thus limited to relatively low velocities. I found that the standard target load of 3.0 grains of Bullseye, standard primer, and bullet seated nearly flush with a firm roll crimp, always gave excellent accuracy and provided very impressive expansion in any media tried. Shot 5 rounds from a Model 36 into the chest cavity of a dead antelope at about 6 feet range, then dressed the animal normally. Recovered all 5 bullets from the lungs, retained weight was consistently 90%-plus, and expansion was consistently to .700"-plus.

I was also present for an autopsy performed by a very experienced pathologist, subject was a grown man shot once in the lower abdomen with one round of reversed HBWC fired from a Model 36 at about 4 to 6 feet. Doc described it as one of the most devastating handgun wounds he had ever seen.

I still load these for use in my J-frame revolvers. Very modest recoil, minimal muzzle flash or blast, and very good performance at close ranges.

 

[Boge]

Mr. Atomic Ammo,

I sent your co. an e-mail last Summer but there was no reply. Your ammo shot/shoots great in my guns, BUT there is one point of concern. Some of your ctgs. would not chamber completely in my J Frame nor my Colt Det. Spcl. and required a superhuman shove to chamber the last 1/8". I sorted out the ones that were like this and it was approx. one third of the 2nd box I had bought. I shot those up in a .357 Mag. revolver. I did not mike the rounds so I am unsure if it was a matter of the cases not being sized properly or perhaps your WC bullets perhaps being over spec. Just a heads up on QC.

 

[zonker5]

It is good that Mr. AA came to call and to tell us of his wares. As you read his offering keep in mind that he is not an unbiased source of information.

-Z-

 

[moxie]

Funny that you would call the reversed wadcutter load (which apparently is NOT unproven, per the above posts) a "pricey gimmick", yet recommend a load with the fancy name "golden saber" which sells for a buck a round or more.

This is a new round that hasn't yet developed a track record. I hope it works out. Older wadcutter loads do have a track record. I wasn't referring to them. The GS, notwithstanding its "fancy" name, has a good record and does well in all the tests I've seen. Here's an example: AMMO TEST: .380 ACP Remington Golden Saber 102 gr JHP - YouTube
And, as I indicated earlier, the GS are available at ammunitiondepot.com for considerably less, ~65 cents a round.

 

[ATOMIC AMMO]

Re: AA reply. Thank you for this post. Doubtless developing narrow task oriented ammunition requires some issues/concerns to considered primary with others rendered secondary. No one single bullet/load combination is going to ever be the one be all to end all load that will satisfy the concerns of everyone in every possible situation imaginable. Wish you every success in this as well as your other developments.

Our 38 SPL+P ammo is designed primary for snub nosed revolvers and self defense scenarios. It is made to penetrate and expand in a threat such as a person or attacking dog,not a blast through a tank, halt a tyrannosaurus rex type threat in its tracks round. There are better cartridge/firearm combos for that, but they do not likely fit in a pocket holster and weigh under a pound to carry.

 

[ATOMIC AMMO]

It is good that Mr. AA came to call and to tell us of his wares. As you read his offering keep in mind that he is not an unbiased source of information.

-Z-

That is a fair point that I am somewhat biased towards my product, but again, I have access to many manufacturers bullets and after testing many bullet designs I selected our 148 grain HBWC for its performance in a snub nosed and full sized 38 SPL revolver.

In my opinion, the reason why none of the largest ammo companies make a 38 SPL+P reverse wadcutter load like ours is because of the extra time that it takes to load to get the HBWC inverted and it could invalidate, at least to some extent the high tech, high priced lesser expanding 38 ammo that they manufacture for self defense.

 

[hotrod150]

.... Some of your ctgs. would not chamber completely in my J Frame nor my Colt Det. Spcl. and required a superhuman shove to chamber the last 1/8"....

I had this issue when I handloaded some reversd wadcutters. There is no ogive on a Speer saged HBWC-- it is full caliber size at both ends. If seated out a bit too long, it will not go into the chamber all the way. The forward end of the chambers on my S&W revolvers is smaller than the aft end-- in fact, they are smaller than the forcing cone of the barrel. I had to seat the reversed WC's a bit deeper than I would have like but it was no big deal. If you are having the same issue with Atomic's LHP ammo, I would agree that their QC folks need to take a look at tis & maybe seat the bullets just a tad deeper.

 

[hotrod150]

........
As to effectiveness, I figure figured a reverse WC would be at least as effective as the FBI load which many here use. It seems like pretty much the same thing.

I disagree, at least with the part about the reverse WC and the FBI load (aka SWC-HP) being the same thing. They both have hollow points and are made of soft lead, but otherwise no. Just take a look at them. The hollowpoint on the SWC looks like (and is) an afterthought, compared to the hollowpoint on the reversed wadcutter. IMHO the beauty of the LHP (reversed wadcutter) is that you can actually achieve good expansion without extreme velocity, which should allow for expansion out of a velocity-challenged 2" 38 spl revolver, as well as preventing possible over-penetration. Perfect for self-defense against lightly-clothed assailants, against perps wearing body armor and/or barricated behind cars... ..not so much.

 

[oldman10mm]

here's one of my tests from back in the 80s'.

 

[silentflyer]

I can recall shoot reverse HBWC's into wet phone books, not much penetration but it knocked the phone books backward end over end. They opened up about the size of a quarter.

 

[John P.]

I experimented with HBWC loaded backwards a few years ago. I used the Berry's Plated and 5 grains of Unique. I did not seat flush; about 25 percent of the bullet was above the case mouth, and I crimped with a Lee FCD. I used a Colt Python with a 2.5 inch barrel to test the loads. I found that between 40-50 percent keyholed at 15 yards and accuracy was plain horrible. I scrapped the project without any penetration testing, and load my short barrel revolvers with either the FBI load or the Speer SB load, whichever I have on hand.

 

[shooter5112]

I remember shooting in a PPC match, many years ago. One shooter, firing 148 HBWC's, had too many holes in his target, claimed another competitor crossfired on him, and wanted a refire. Standing there, all by himself, he fired 12 rounds and had 16 holes in the target.