Beware; Fake Smith Wesson boxes

[JSR III]

If offered a reproduction part or component of ANYTHING ... that item being offered and accepted as reproduction or restorative part ... what's the crime ? Aren't there quite a few skilled craftsman that restore original boxes ?

Sal,

That would possibly be true except this gentleman is stating that these boxes are NOS, real and original. As Don stated, he even offers to put your gun's serial number on the box bottom in S&W fashion.

As far as a restoration, the box is still an original S&W box that has been repaired not a reproduction made in China.

After you purchase a reproduction / restoration quality box or labels it is up to YOU .... when or if you again sell that box, with or without the correct gun inside it, to disclose the box is not "the" box the gun left the factory in, but rather an artfully manufactured restorative quality, reproduction box.

That would be great IF you do that. What if (God forbid) you die. Will the auction house that sells your collection indicate that the box is not original? Will the person that you sell the gun to while living do the same when he/she sells the gun?

Face it, everyone would prefer to have "the" original box. If not the original then a reproduction or restorative quality might be okay if you subscribe to the practice, even if for only a display item ... but .... it's impossible to find "the" exact box, an artfully reproduced restorative copy of the original box might be OK ... only IF (and I repeat ONLY IF) there is no intended to deceive nor false witness given to insinuate that the restorative quality box is being represented as "the" original box .... what is the harm ?

Again Sal, there would be no harm if this were not a deliberate attempt to create fake original boxes. Once you offer end labels with the serial number or agree to place the serial number of the box bottom, there is no doubt in my mind that this is an effort to deceive a future buyer.

Roy Jinks has even stated on several occasions that he is opposed to folks finding boxes and paperwork and "building" an original package. Finding a gun in its original box with all of the original tools and paperwork in new condition is the holy grail of gun collecting. Putting a package together serves no other purpose than to make an effort to enhance the value of the gun through false means. Even those folks that do it with totally honest intentions and are willing to tell any future purchaser the facts fail to realize what can happen down the road. As true collectors, we owe it to future collectors to not allow this practice to continue. How many would be willing to write in the box bottom the word "REPRODUCTION" or "NOT ORIGINAL" with a large black magic marker?? Probably not many.

Rant over.

 

[samandglove1]

This thread is well worth reading through.

 

[wheelgun28]

In doing so, at times, certain sections of certain types of wood or gauge sheet metal had to be recreated to match the original which was no longer in production. Geeeze, Jay Leno keeps a master craftsman, in house, to roll out new fenders from flat sheet metal to hand and machine roll and bend this metal to specific 1920s 1930s automobiles.

Most of the items I actually re-created were Rolls-Royce and Bentley interior wood dash trim panels, since there was either NO replacement available from Rolls Royce or the cost was so prohibitive, it was more cost effective to have the existing wood "restored" which included full or partial hand manufactured and sculpted, matching panels.

I respectfully disagree, this example would be more like making a part for the box. Lets say the metal corner support, if you cut and formed a new piece of metal then painted it to match. Its restored and most folks would be happy with that work and perhaps impressed with the care and workmanship.
The case of making totally new boxes, would be more like having a old Rolls Royce made in China then saying you found a new undiscovered car hidden in the garage of the Rolls employee.

I see the two very differently.

I have seen other (non gun or box) reproductions made that look very nice but will have a slight change someplace. Anyone that knows can spot this and will know it not the real deal. IMHO making a direct copy and passing it off as real is fraud.

I seem to recall a story from twenty or thirty years ago that GM cracked down on use of its trademarks. Reproduction car parts was more of a cottage industry then. People were just putting the appropriate marking on items and selling them. GM send a crew to (I think could be wrong) the Hershey swap meet and made a big list of names of sellers. The all got letters from GM lawyers. They wanted to be paid for the use of trademarks.

Personaly, I bought some Colt boxes ten years ago or more, well before the NAS (New Asian Stock) showed up. Whats the chance of selling them as real. Point is this stuff hurts the market and dilutes the rare items. These NAS boxes have been found on the auctions with guns marketed as original box...

Not a big deal today, ok, in twenty years from now what will the saturation be?

How about when you sell your big dollar gun you bought new and no one thinks your original box has value...

 

[DocB]

I got a Colt box from him about a year ago. It was for a 1968 revolver. I've got to say that I was impressed. When I hold it next to an original box, I can't tell the difference, except his box is like new. Haven't seen one of his Smith boxes in person yet. With Rolex boxes and accessories, I can tell the difference. With gun boxes, like the ones he sells, I really can't.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Sal. You can't compare restoring a motor vehicle to a fake gun box. If a car came in it's original garage, yes your argument would hold water. This man is doing one thing and one thing only, lying! He is doing this for one reason, to make money.

 

[THEMULE]

I too am bothered by this as many of you are. 1st off a big thanks to Kris for starting this thread and to Lee for "fine tuning" Kris's post.
If you look at my post count, you'll see I'm a "youngin" here, and still wet behind the ears. So spotting a fake would be difficult for me.
However, I have learned quit a bit here. So when I read that he would add the serial #...... That was a big turn off for me.
I need to thank JSRIII for that. Awhile back, I started a thread about "how to remove grease pencil from the bottom of a gold box"
I got lots of reply's but one stuck in my head and hasn't left. Mr. Redfield asked me "why would you want to do that? You will forever remove the possibility of that box being matched up to the original gun"...... Or something like that. But that's the idea. So I left the boxes how I recieved them.... (Now I'm trying to figure out how I can build a data base to marry up boxes to guns)
I don't entirely agree with MR. Redfields above post about "not building a complete package".
I enjoy looking for, finding, talking with the seller and ultimately waiting and receiving that item in the mail. I've posted a few guns here with the package that I've built. But, I also told the truth...... Not the original box, added the Helpful Hints ect, ect....

I've seen here on the forum a seller have a gun for sale in the classifieds and the presentation case being sold in the accessories side. I guess to make more money. I didn't agree with it, but what do I know? I'm a young pup here. So I see no issue in building the package. But if you do...... Please disclose that information when you choose to sell it.

I guess it boils down to morals and honesty doesn't it?
Thanks for listening.....
Bob

 

[cmansguns]

adding in my $.02....some years ago I needed some instructions on a gun and went to the free web site for Steves gun pages and he had just about every manual you could want, all available for free as a download, and nobody gained any money. The one manufacturer that you could NOT get from Steve was any Smith & Wesson and he explained right on his web-site that S & W Attornies had contacted him about duplicating and he has withdrawn everything to do with S & W.

Maybe as previous posters mentioned.....if SWCollectors can contact S&W factory direct maybe they can shut down "Blovic". By the way...10 years ago I need a replica (not an original) Colt box for a M1903 that we were presenting to a veteran who had done some real good works here and the pistol had been restored to look beautiful, repro grips of correct era added, and we did buy the box from this same guy. The box made the whole presentation look good, and all of us, including the vet knew the gun would probably reside that way, unfired, in the box for a long time, so none of us involved really thought we were doing something wrong, or contributing to marketplace fraud, or ??? but in a way you guys are right......if nobody bought....he would be out of business quick.

 

[JH1951]

Well his name is Dennis and he shows Sparta, Tenn as the address. Perhaps you boys should pay him a visit???

PS: I emailed him and asked if the box was original or a reproduction as it seems so pristine. We shall see what he says.

I did that some time back about a Colt box. Be prepared for a somewhat incoherent response about finding a bunch that were set aside by former employees. The guy is a crook, no doubt, but what amazes me most is that so many people buy his stuff and then leave fantastic feedback for him....

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, currently I don't see where he is in violation of any copyright laws with Smith & Wesson. The labels are just letters and color. There is no crime in that. Once he starts selling labels with the logo, that's a different story. I don't believe copyright laws apply to manufactures in China, so there would be no way of stopping them there. I had an attorney from Smith & Wesson come to my table once questioning me as to the authenticity of my blue Smith & Wesson table cover. I showed him the label. He told me if he had found it was a fake, he would have taken it away form me. I saw first hand where a dealer at a show in West Springfield Mass had his hats and other clothing confiscated by West Springfield Police detectives. He was selling hats, tee shirts, holsters and jackets with about every gun manufactures name on them. They took everything on his table even the plastic bags with the Glock logo.

 

[Old TexMex]

Sal shouldn't be taken out of context, since he maintained the wrongdoing was the misrepresentation of the product.

Problem lies in the second tier of distribution.
Example: you can make and sell "stage money" legally. If the buyer turns it as specie circulum that's a crime.

You know....
South Beach Miami roller blading bikini babes aren't always OEM.
They're nice for display, functional packaging, but they ain't real.

Not everybody cares... but I digress.

 

[wheelgun28]

Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, currently I don't see where he is in violation of any copyright laws with Smith & Wesson. The labels are just letters and color. There is no crime in that. Once he starts selling labels with the logo, that's a different story. I don't believe copyright laws apply to manufactures in China, so there would be no way of stopping them there. I had an attorney from Smith & Wesson come to my table once questioning me as to the authenticity of my blue Smith & Wesson table cover. I showed him the label. He told me if he had found it was a fake, he would have taken it away form me. I saw first hand where a dealer at a show in West Springfield Mass had his hats and other clothing confiscated by West Springfield Police detectives. He was selling hats, tee shirts, holsters and jackets with about every gun manufactures name on them. They took everything on his table even the plastic bags with the Glock logo.

I was looking at that also, hes not using S&W property as best I can see (I'm not an expert or anything else for that matter), the Colt stuff, well that's a different story. I wonder who if anyone owns the Colt rights?

The maroon boxes, a funny thing is someplace I have a maroon box. It looks just like a S&W maroon box, the color is a hair off from the ones I have but close enough to be faded or just a dye lot thing. The thing is its old, but never had anything to do with guns, firearms, or S&W. I forgot what came in it but something like ladies gloves I seem to recall.

I understand S&W made the blue boxes in house, what about the gold or maroon? After seeing the glove box I would have guessed S&W just bought the maroon boxes from a box supplier?

Trademarks and patents are only as good as you enforce them..

 

[wheelgun28]

You know....
South Beach Miami roller blading bikini babes aren't always OEM.
They're nice for display, functional packaging, but they ain't real.

Not everybody cares... but I digress.

Got some pics so we can judge

 

[Laketime]

Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, currently I don't see where he is in violation of any copyright laws with Smith & Wesson. The labels are just letters and color. There is no crime in that. Once he starts selling labels with the logo, that's a different story. I don't believe copyright laws apply to manufactures in China, so there would be no way of stopping them there. I had an attorney from Smith & Wesson come to my table once questioning me as to the authenticity of my blue Smith & Wesson table cover. I showed him the label. He told me if he had found it was a fake, he would have taken it away form me. I saw first hand where a dealer at a show in West Springfield Mass had his hats and other clothing confiscated by West Springfield Police detectives. He was selling hats, tee shirts, holsters and jackets with about every gun manufactures name on them. They took everything on his table even the plastic bags with the Glock logo.

Sounds like he is just skating underneath the law here.

 

[Jaymo]

I would love to get nice reproduction boxes for my 15-3, 15-5, and 52-1.
Not looking to sell them. Just would like nice original looking boxes for them.

 

[model3sw]

I respectfully disagree, this example would be more like making a part for the box. Lets say the metal corner support, if you cut and formed a new piece of metal then painted it to match. Its restored and most folks would be happy with that work and perhaps impressed with the care and workmanship.
The case of making totally new boxes, would be more like having a old Rolls Royce made in China then saying you found a new undiscovered car hidden in the garage of the Rolls employee.

I see the two very differently.

I have seen other (non gun or box) reproductions made that look very nice but will have a slight change someplace. Anyone that knows can spot this and will know it not the real deal. IMHO making a direct copy and passing it off as real is fraud.

I seem to recall a story from twenty or thirty years ago that GM cracked down on use of its trademarks. Reproduction car parts was more of a cottage industry then. People were just putting the appropriate marking on items and selling them. GM send a crew to (I think could be wrong) the Hershey swap meet and made a big list of names of sellers. The all got letters from GM lawyers. They wanted to be paid for the use of trademarks.

Personaly, I bought some Colt boxes ten years ago or more, well before the NAS (New Asian Stock) showed up. Whats the chance of selling them as real. Point is this stuff hurts the market and dilutes the rare items. These NAS boxes have been found on the auctions with guns marketed as original box...

Not a big deal today, ok, in twenty years from now what will the saturation be?

How about when you sell your big dollar gun you bought new and no one thinks your original box has value...

I understand and agree with some, if not all, of your points BUT this is NOTHING NEW. It's been going on for over 100 years. If you think of vintage gun traders as used car salesman ... how does that vary your opinion ?

The point is, whether it was done in a fraudulent and deceitful manner ... or ... it was represented for exactly what it is.

 

[paplinker]

Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, currently I don't see where he is in violation of any copyright laws with Smith & Wesson. The labels are just letters and color. There is no crime in that. Once he starts selling labels with the logo, that's a different story. I don't believe copyright laws apply to manufactures in China, so there would be no way of stopping them there. I had an attorney from Smith & Wesson come to my table once questioning me as to the authenticity of my blue Smith & Wesson table cover. I showed him the label. He told me if he had found it was a fake, he would have taken it away form me. I saw first hand where a dealer at a show in West Springfield Mass had his hats and other clothing confiscated by West Springfield Police detectives. He was selling hats, tee shirts, holsters and jackets with about every gun manufactures name on them. They took everything on his table even the plastic bags with the Glock logo.

I wonder if the print inside the box is copyrighted?

Also did any other revolver share that same size box? Maybe some Outdoorsmans or an other?

Reason I ask is it with these boxes that take a sticker on the end did S&W order them with the sticker or did they buy a bunch of different size boxes and put the stickers and stamp the inside themselves. On the gold boxes its obvious they were made with all info on them.

 

[model3sw]

I hope everyone understands this is just a discussion / sounding board. I'm not angry with anyone and hope everyone takes these posts in the constructive manner that they were posted.

Smoke, gooood, fire, baaaaad ! Friend ?

Bottom line: LIES ABOUT BEING REPRODUCTIONS or represents the boxes as New Old stock.... BAD !!! I agree, then he's a dirt bag.

DISCLOSES that HE SELLS REPRODUCTION BOXES ... no harm, no foul and he just may be "the" guy that plied himself to a niche market and made MILLIONS at it.

 

[sbowenjr]

I thought if it was on the inter web it was true. Now I'm confused as usual. ;-).

 

[Tom K]

I received an explanation from Dennis.

New message from: blovit
I buy Pistol collections and literature and Colt Grips and Smith & Wesson Pistol Boxes all over the USA ---As far as I know they are 100% original new old stock in every aspect and detail---I can only tell you what I know--I buy from some retired workers from Colt and S&W and Old Colt and Smith And Wesson Box Suppliers who still had old Box Inventories--The Colt and Smith & Wesson Retired Employee's tell me they got them where they worked & Supplier left over old stock --- I wasn't there to verify this?? May be some seconds??---But all my products look original to me and 100% mint old stock--Read my feedback on Gunbroker I am vikrant on Gunbroker and EBay I am blovit on EBay-- everyone is always happy with their purchase and I offer a 100% money back guarantee plus your postage back to me if your not 100% happy with your Purchase--Tks Dennis

I will let you be the judge.......

That's his standard copy'n'paste answer to anyone who asks about the originality of the stuff he sells, to give the impression that his stuff is legitimate. I've seen it a dozen times or more on the Colt Forum, where he has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum for years. The members there have tried to get eBay and GunBroker to ban him without result - they apparently care only about their bottom line and as long as he sells stuff and they get their cut, it's all fine with them. The Colt Forum has tried to get Colt to prosecute him for using their intellectual property (logos and such) but they won't bother.

Bottom line - he is a liar and a fraud. It's been demonstrated numerous times on the Colt Forum. You can go there and search for ColtBoxMan, Blovit, Vikrant or fake box to find pertinent threads. He almost never gets negative feedback on eBay or GB because he provides a refund to anyone who complains, and those who don't complain are either nitwits who are willing to pay hundreds for a $20 fake box, or also liars and frauds who are putting together a "new in box" Python package or the like.

Perhaps now that it's S&W's ox that is being gored (a company with more resources than Colt) something will be done.

 

[steelslaver]

Trouble is he isn't costing S&W a dime. They are in businesses to sell new guns, not collectables and collectables accessories. This hurts legitimate collectors and dealers.

Yes he is a dirt bag.