LOOKOUT; more coming out
Smith Wesson K 22 Masterpiece 6 inch Model 48 22MAG Box | eBay
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Smith Wesson K 22 Masterpiece 6 inch Model 48 22MAG Box | eBay
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Beware; Fake Smith Wesson boxes
- Thread starter 410bore
- Start date
Well I believe the same seller now has Model 27 and Model 66 boxes for sale. I would think that he is now breaking some kind of trademark/copyright laws by reusing the company logos and statements. But I'm not a lawyer. I must admit they do look well made. This is unfortunate because the market will eventually get flooded by these counterfeits.
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BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The new fakes are so pricey that I don't think there will be enough of them sold to flood any market but they will doubtlessly be used to cheat some honest folks and cast doubt on many others.
Unfortunately, he has been selling the pricey Colt boxes for a long time and doing very well! Many of the complete packages you see at auction contain some of his stuff.
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Rick Bowles
Absent Comrade
Dennis is also counterfeiting gun grips like S&W cokes and Colt Elephant Ear stocks for the Bullseye MTW. It's important to be able to identify the fakes but remember if you post the imperfections you are also educating the counterfeiters so the next generation of fakes will be better.
Rick, please post a link to the Cokes. Haven't seen those but have seen the elephant ear stocks and colt Python target stocks
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Really disappointed over this whole thing.
I didn't realize taking someones product was this easy.
A lot of people with genuine complete sets will be met with skepticism in the future. Especially anyone who sells on the internet or by Auction.
Having to take detailed pictures of the box will become the norm.
A thread about counter fitting may be worthy of a sticky in the future.
I didn't realize taking someones product was this easy.
A lot of people with genuine complete sets will be met with skepticism in the future. Especially anyone who sells on the internet or by Auction.
Having to take detailed pictures of the box will become the norm.
A thread about counter fitting may be worthy of a sticky in the future.
C Broad Arrow
Member
Here, the market will take care of things. The fake boxes will be bought initially by novices or those trying to pull a fast one. But as novices get an understanding that they are fake, and when the more knowledgeable collectors discounts their packages due to uncertainty about what else might be fake, demand should fall off.
In the short term the confusion over authenticity will create a downward pressure on the value for packages with real boxes. However, the market will likely treat all "new boxes" as fake and not value them.
Just think about it for a second, would you buy a 60 plus year old gun with a box that looks like it was printed yesterday without questioning it, and likely the guns, authenticity? The new box will diminish not only the package but he value of the gun. The free market, and information, are both wonderful things.
In the short term the confusion over authenticity will create a downward pressure on the value for packages with real boxes. However, the market will likely treat all "new boxes" as fake and not value them.
Just think about it for a second, would you buy a 60 plus year old gun with a box that looks like it was printed yesterday without questioning it, and likely the guns, authenticity? The new box will diminish not only the package but he value of the gun. The free market, and information, are both wonderful things.
I've only seen the pictures of the Smith boxes here on the forum, and on eBay. They seem to look more authentic than the Colt boxes. I have seen some of the Colt boxes at a few gun shows, and in addition to looking unrealistically "new", they don't seem to be the correct thickness, and the printing on the labels doesn't seem to be quite correct.
But based on the photos here, and on eBay, this guy seems to be presenting a much more realistic looking product. The cardboard seems more like the correct thickness, and the exterior silver printing on the boxes looks much more realistic. And another thing: these boxes are counterfeits of much more recent products than the Colts, boxes that one could reasonably believe could still be in that good a shape. I think that he is becoming much more sophisticated in his presentation, and therefore is going to have an increasingly significant impact on the legitimate box market.
Just as with counterfeit currency, the proportion of counterfeit in circulation at any given time has a negative effect on the value of legitimate currency. That's why counterfeiters are pursued and prosecuted, because they have a negative effect on the value of our money.
Best Regards, Les
But based on the photos here, and on eBay, this guy seems to be presenting a much more realistic looking product. The cardboard seems more like the correct thickness, and the exterior silver printing on the boxes looks much more realistic. And another thing: these boxes are counterfeits of much more recent products than the Colts, boxes that one could reasonably believe could still be in that good a shape. I think that he is becoming much more sophisticated in his presentation, and therefore is going to have an increasingly significant impact on the legitimate box market.
Just as with counterfeit currency, the proportion of counterfeit in circulation at any given time has a negative effect on the value of legitimate currency. That's why counterfeiters are pursued and prosecuted, because they have a negative effect on the value of our money.
Best Regards, Les
I would assume boxes roughed up a little with fake patina and oil spots will trickle out next.
C Broad Arrow
Member
Which undermine the value of boxes and guns with boxes even further as soon it will be too hard to tell the fakes from the real things, resulting, in the short term, a prolonged devaluation of boxes.
gjamison
Member
I think this will take care of itself. There are very few collectors that will spend this kind of money on cardboard. My rule of thumb is, I want the box to have some kind of ware on it, if the gun is from the 30s,40s or 50s it's going to have some ware issues, in short I think the guy will be selling these for $10 apiece eventually.
C Broad Arrow
Member
Exactly! The market is a wonderful thing.
wear………age, usage
DWalt
Member
Anyone with an original S&W or Colt box can send it to India, Thailand, China, or wherever there is some box making capability and ask for a million exact duplicates to be made of it, and get them, probably for a dollar each. Making boxes is not a high-tech enterprise. I don't understand the arguments about letting counterfeiters in on the secrets of making a counterfeit gun box (or anything else) when there is no secret to it. And I will repeat with double emphasis what I said earlier. There is no one reading this who can do a single solitary thing to stop box counterfeiting. So what's the point of this pointless thread, other than possibly making more people more aware of the existence of counterfeit boxes?
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Don, the analogy to auto restorations I tried to impress is only in instances where there is not enough of the original part to work with, thus, a new piece has to be fabricated from scratch. Jay Leno keeps a sheet metal man in employment all the time. A master craftsman of the lost art to roll out and "make" fenders and othe sheet metal parts for 1900s to 1040s automobiles from a flat piece of sheet metal.
If the work is good enough to pass scrutiny of the most discerning collectors, you're compared to a modern DaVinci (for actually making a part from nothing to match the original part) and if not, you will shortly be out of that business.
In short, if nobody bought these knock-off / replacement boxes, he's soon be out of business and problems solved.
I likely don't have as many original boxes as you, but I have quite few (some that I purchased from you). If I place a gun in the proper type and era box, should I later sell it I would always state that the box is original and period-correct to the gun but is not "the" box it came in from the factory regardless that you, I and almost all of us can tell it is not "the" box it came in. I have no regard for the replacement end labels on the two-piece blue boxes of the 1960s to 1980s. That's just nasty.
if someone wants to buy these replacement boxes, there's no harm if they are represented for what they truly are when purchased and when sold with the appropriate gun inside it. We know this vast quantity of near perfect Colt boxes cannot be new/old stock unless his father owned a box manufacturing facility ... which is not too far of a stretch. If he contracts these boxes from the orient somewhere, someone took an immense amount of time and money to get this monster up, running and breathing fire as well as it is.
If there were no market for the product or if the Colt boxes were not as perfect (as we see the M&P box is clearly not original) he'd be out of business.
Really? "The market" is apparently why he is now doing S&W boxes, having been so successful with fraudulent Colt boxes for years now. There seems to be no end to either the gullible who think they are getting the real thing, the nitwits who know it's a fake but are willing to spend hundreds for a $20 box, or the fellow fraudsters who are using his product to create "NIB" packages for sale at a substantial markup.
I don't think this will end until someone such as S&W takes legal action.
As I've mentioned, Vikrant/Blovit/ColtBoxMan/Dennis Mills has been cussed and discussed on the Colt Forum for years. He has actually responded on the forum a few times in illiterate and insulting style, claiming that the Colt forum members are ignorant and jealous know-nothing know-it-alls. Likely he is now monitoring this forum as well.
There is a current thread at the Colt Forum about his expansion into S&W boxes: Guess who is making S&W Boxes now......
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