Bodyguard 2.0 sights / ammo questions

[tarheel13]

As far as ammo, after doing hours of research on .380 ammo I've landed on Winchester "Service Grade" flat nose, pretty much the cheapest brass case .380 you can buy (and as far as I can tell, identical to the Bass Pro/Cabellas Herter brand .380). The general consensus among testers seems to be that flat nose FMJ .380 isn't any worse out of a short barrel than the pricier stuff, especially if you need to penetrate heavy clothing.

I think that's right. It's FMJ so there is no hollow point to clog up with heavy clothing. And the flat nose has been shown repeatedly to have better straight-line penetration than round nose FMJ because the bullet does not swerve off to one side or the other. There has been considerable discussion about why that is, but one reasonable suggestion is that flat nose rounds have "shoulder stabilization" which causes a flat nose to straighten up if it starts to turn. In any case, I've seen Winchester Flat Nose penetrate 19 inches in an emulation of the FBI heavy clothing test, performing as well as the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator and for far less money.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Just wanted to follow up on my saga...

The BG2.0 is hands down the must frustrating gun I've ever owned.

I did replace the rear sight with one from a BG380. It definitely narrowed the gaping chasm that the stock sight had and is a little higher to boot which should theoretically help with grouping low, but in reality it didn't. Replacing the sight was a nightmare, I couldn't get a good purchase in my sight pusher so I ended up using a punch set. Wailing on the punch with a mallet alternately did nothing or shoved it way past where I wanted it. I finally got it close enough to try shooting groups, and they were all over the place. At 25 yards I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, at 15 it was better but my groups were still ragged and low even with a combat hold. I was seriously thinking I'd screwed up in choosing the BG over the Sig 365. Out of frustration, I snapped off two quick shots from low ready at 15 yards.

Both hit more or less POI, well within the A zone of an IPSC target. Easily the best I'd shot the gun, and I'd put basically no thought into aiming. I fired five more two shot groups from low ready, all landed similarly- not the tightest group, but 10 A-zone hits and 2 C-zone, all combat effective hits.

What the hell? It seemed like the less effort I put into shooting the gun, the better I did, the opposite of every other firearm I've ever shot.

I began to notice a pattern- I was firing pretty much as soon as I acquired the front sight, when it was still high in the rear. I was also essentially point shooting using the front sight and ignoring the rear. Are S&W's engineers geniuses for designing a sighting system that counteracts the natural tendency in a stressful situation to snap fire before a proper sight picture is achieved, or are the sights just screwed up in a way that balances out my crappy shooting? Either way, it seems to be working for me. I think I'm ready to declare victory and go home.

As far as ammo, after doing hours of research on .380 ammo I've landed on Winchester "Service Grade" flat nose, pretty much the cheapest brass case .380 you can buy (and as far as I can tell, identical to the Bass Pro/Cabellas Herter brand .380). The general consensus among testers seems to be that flat nose FMJ .380 isn't any worse out of a short barrel than the pricier stuff, especially if you need to penetrate heavy clothing.


The takeaway from all this appears to be don't overthink it.

"The takeaway from all this appears to be don't overthink it."

I've been active on internet forums since 1999. It seems that most forums are all about over thinking.

Although I have been accused of having "analysis paralysis", when it comes to certain life issues, like health and diet or guns and ammo, I don't think a person can over think about what's important to them.

For example, we see lots of testing done with gelatin and pieces of clothing. I live in the Arizona in the desert. The average yearly temperature for Phoenix, AZ is 73.7d F. We have about 2 months of cold weather, December and January where people may where a heavy coat or a jacket. Most people, around my elevation level, wear very lightweight clothing seven months of the year.

So…. my Hornady Critical Defense FTX bullet getting clogged up with cloth is not a likely issue. In a hypothetical spontaneous personal attack where I have to fire my defense carry, I will not be "overthinking" about penetration.

 

[pedropcola]

While I do agree with not overthinking things I believe you are misapplying it in this case.

If you are scoring hits while "snap shooting" but can't hit the side of a barn while aiming then you have basic structural issues with your shooting. Everyone can candy coat it but your last post is nonsensical. It either shoots accurately or it doesn't. And, and this is also indicative of your inability to group (structural problems), if your replacement rear sight is higher and you report that it hasn't altered POI with the same ammo, well that's not possible. If the rear sight is higher the groups will be higher.

If they aren't it's because of YOU. Get some training because it is you. Just like the last (edited) thread, some things just aren't true. Drifting a sight in a fixed dovetail won't change elevation. Ever. (Unless there is something monstrously wrong with the dovetail cut, unlikely). And changing the elevation of the sights ABSOLUTELY has to change the point of impact.

Some things in gun life aren't subject to argument and those two are on the list.

 

[tarheel13]

The average yearly temperature for Phoenix, AZ is 73.7d F. We have about 2 months of cold weather, December and January where people may where a heavy coat or a jacket. Most people, around my elevation level, wear very lightweight clothing seven months of the year.

So…. my Hornady Critical Defense FTX bullet getting clogged up with cloth is not a likely issue.

Hey @GnarlsR2 , what if you have to shoot a Yankee who is inappropriately dressed? What will you do then, huh?

 

[GnarlsR2]

Hey @GnalrsR2, what if you have to shoot a Yankee who is inappropriately dressed? What will you do then, huh?

Great question....

Answer: My BG2 will first fire a Hornady Critical Defense FTX, 2nd round out of mag is a Sig Sauer Elite Performance Flat Nose, the 3rd round is PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ. I was a Boy Scout.

 

[GnarlsR2]

While I do agree with not overthinking things I believe you are misapplying it in this case.

If you are scoring hits while "snap shooting" but can't hit the side of a barn while aiming then you have basic structural issues with your shooting. Everyone can candy coat it but your last post is nonsensical. It either shoots accurately or it doesn't. And, and this is also indicative of your inability to group (structural problems), if your replacement rear sight is higher and you report that it hasn't altered POI with the same ammo, well that's not possible. If the rear sight is higher the groups will be higher.

If they aren't it's because of YOU. Get some training because it is you. Just like the last retarded thread, some things just aren't true. Drifting a sight in a fixed dovetail won't change elevation. Ever. (Unless there is something monstrously wrong with the dovetail cut, unlikely). And changing the elevation of the sights ABSOLUTELY has to change the point of impact.

Some things in gun life aren't subject to argument and those two are on the list.

I rarely engage in cancerous discourse on a forum.

However, your constant and pathetically disgusting disrespectful, condescending, demeaning, name-calling of those who post their opinions and experiences is inexcusable.

What you think you know about firearm sights or accuracy wouldn't make a pimple on Bryan Litz's butt.

For the past 9 months I have found that the people who post on this site and forum are the most knowledgeable, experienced firearm owners, armorers, gunsmiths, collectors, competitors, and 2A supporters anywhere. The administration of the site/forum is managed by a very dedicated and knowledgeable group and obviously have spent their time making it an incredibly interesting and informative place to visit.

What makes these people even more appreciated is they generously share their experiences, expertise, and opinions without insulting, demeaning, degrading personal attacks.

If you find these posts so bad perhaps it's not a good place for your attitude.

 

[pedropcola]

Whatever. I'm pretty sure you are the guy who said he drifted the sights resulting in an elevation shift. Then when confronted with the falsity of that statement posted some random AI answer so maybe instead of getting your feelings hurt you should actually read and absorb knowledge.

Once again, you can't drift a sight to change elevation nor can you change the height of a sight and not shift elevation. It is basic stuff. What is cancerous is spreading complete untruths and when told so trying to double down on being right. Which you weren't. At all. Feel free to ignore my posts but if somebody posts complete unfiltered nonsense it needs to be pointed out.

By the way when you say "what you think you know" about handgun sights is literally common knowledge. I hate the term settled science but this one falls into that category. I'm not spewing my opinion on how handgun sights work. It's not my opinion. It is just how they work. Read the guys post with the front sight rear sight acronym. Memorize it if it helps. It's true. It's been true forever. Not opinion, just how it works. Sorry that bugs you. I will edit the "retarded" comment out from my above post. It was unnecessary but the gist of the rest still stands as FACT.

 

[tarheel13]

I rarely engage in cancerous discourse on a forum.

However, your constant and pathetically disgusting disrespectful, condescending, demeaning, name-calling of those who post their opinions and experiences is inexcusable.

What you think you know about firearm sights or accuracy wouldn't make a pimple on Bryan Litz's butt.

For the past 9 months I have found that the people who post on this site and forum are the most knowledgeable, experienced firearm owners, armorers, gunsmiths, collectors, competitors, and 2A supporters anywhere. The administration of the site/forum is managed by a very dedicated and knowledgeable group and obviously have spent their time making it an incredibly interesting and informative place to visit.

What makes these people even more appreciated is they generously share their experiences, expertise, and opinions without insulting, demeaning, degrading personal attacks.

If you find these posts so bad perhaps it's not a good place for your attitude.

I agree completely and I refuse to feed the trolls by responding to the vitriol. There are forums on the internet where people puff up their egos by pretending omniscience and think that their importance depends on demeaning others. I want none of it. This forum has been very helpful to me as a first time Smith owner (I come from Glock World) and I have received vital information here. It's not hard to tell who knows what they are talking about and who just wants you to think they do.

 

[GnarlsR2]

"handgun sights is literally common knowledge" … Apparently not in my case.

I've been on forums where there is a self-appointed know-it-all "Poop Monitor".

Fortunately, they did not last long…. They ended up stepping in their own "poop"…..so be careful where you step.

 

[pedropcola]

Weren't you the same guy who was using a 6 o'clock hold and didn't understand why you were hitting low?

Guys. What you guys are calling trolling is LITERALLY pointing out that what you are saying is impossible. Not opinion. It's like asking how a 4 stroke engine works then after the explanation saying "well that's just your opinion". Umm, no it's not an opinion, it's how it works. Regardless of your feels.

So to recap. Drifting a sight WON'T affect elevation. Changing the HEIGHT of a sight HAS TO change elevation. And yes, a bullseye hold will hit low. It was used by bullseye shooters on a standard sized bullseye target to hit center of a standard bullseye (an actual shooting sport) target. Used any other way it will hit low, by design and intention.

 

[tarheel13]

Great question....

Answer: My BG2 will first fire a Hornady Critical Defense FTX, 2nd round out of mag is a Sig Sauer Elite Performance Flat Nose, the 3rd round is PMC Bronze 90 gr FMJ. I was a Boy Scout.

I do the same thing, because I don't know for sure which ammo is best. My "chambered round" is an Underwood Xtreme Penetrator (it's the chambered round because I think it may not feed reliably). Next comes Federal Train and Protect hollowpoint.(assumes no heavy clothing And then Winchester USA Flat Nose. which penetrates well and can't clog up. I hope I never get to find out if this strategy works.

 

[Tom S.]

We are done here.