Brutality in Basic Training

[sbrmike]

Funny you should ask that. I was drafted to be a Drill Sgt in 1983 down at Ft Benning, GA. I was standing on the tarmac ready to load into a C-130 for a little trip. A friend from Delta Company yelled from across the way and asked if my first name was Michael. I said yeah. He said we are going to Drill Sgt School at Ft Benning in 7 days; you are on my orders. I immediately asked my First Sergeant if it was true. He said but we are only going away for 5 days. I will leave you alone to get ready when we get back.

Once in Drill Sergeant School I met guys who volunteered for the duty. They had multiple screenings, interviews, and sign offs up to Brigade level, pre tests, numerous PT Tests, Psyche evals, etc. before being sent to Drill Sgt School. I already told you my rigorous screening, LOL!!!

I was assigned to 2d Bde at Harmony Church (WWII barracks). We had far less scrutiny than 1st Bde at Sand Hill (Sand Hilton we used to say). We had three main rules: Don't mess with Joe's money, sleep, or food. Some guys couldn't even do that.

As far as our training we were just reinforced on the proper tasks to be taught and anti-abuse stuff. I was Infantry so it was pretty much a review.

We've discussed a lot about being on
the receiving end by the instructors
and particularly the Marines and Army.

But anyone here or know of what sort of
training an instructor, the DI, gets to do
his/her job. Are their personalities tested?
What do manuals say or perhaps suggest
as ways to get the best results from recruits.

It seems that recruits' experiences vary
widely and most of the extreme stories are
what seem to be capricious and in some
cases sadistic attitudes of the instructors .

And as the U.S. moves more and more into
sophisticated weaponry and methods of facing
an enemy, can the country afford to perhaps
turn away "nerdy" recruits because of an
outdated, if indeed they are outdated, methods
of toughening everyone up for infantry style battle?

 

[UncleEd]

So SBRMike,

I guess I still am not clear as to where the
different mind games, all the ways to make a
recruits' life miserable, the "swearing" and
sometimes physical abuse come from? The
Drill Sergeants manual/school or is all just
made up stuff by individual drill sergeants
to make basic tougher than it already is?

Since the thread title contains the word
"brutality," is that all just creative stuff by
individual cadres and sergeants?

 

[hostler]

I went through Marine boot camp in 1984. I would not classify anything that happened there to be "brutality", although I was not in the fat body platoon.
The drill instructors were most definitely verbally abusive, and we all did our share of pushups and mountain climbers as punishment for whatever imagined reason the DIs would come up with. I did witness a couple of occasions when DIs would push or shove recruits, or would give an elbow to the chest, that didn't result in injuries, I saw multiple occasions (and experienced a couple of occasions) when recruits would receive temporary dent on the forehead from the brim of a DI cover. Nothing permanent or dangerous, just attention getters.
Bottom line, no one was in real danger, we all got fed, we all got sleep and clothing, we all got medical care when needed. I went into it with the attitude it was all just a well scripted game and no matter how miserable it was, I was going to live through it. With that in mind it wasn't all that bad.

 

[hostler]

So SBRMike,

I guess I still am not clear as to where the
different mind games, all the ways to make a
recruits' life miserable, the "swearing" and
sometimes physical abuse come from? The
Drill Sergeants manual/school or is all just
made up stuff by individual drill sergeants
to make basic tougher than it already is?

Since the thread title contains the word
"brutality," is that all just creative stuff by
individual cadres and sergeants?

It's a weeding-out and team building process that's built into the system.
If one pays attention in boot camp they will realize it's all scripted and regimented.
And drill instructors are the funniest people on earth. Honestly, they are hilarious.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

If you are overweight,out of shape, used to stuffing your fat face whenever you want to, can't do without your afternoon naps-your nicotine-it can be pretty brutal. Part of Basic Training is socializing, making people function as part of a team and look out for each other, make them realize they're not "Back on the Block". And actions have consequences.
DIs and training cadre have to walk a fine line dealing with slackers and goof offs and malingerers and people with genuine health problems.
Again, depends on the time and place. No such thing as "washing out" of BCT in my day, people who thought they could beat the system either found themselves assigned as permanent KP or ended up in the stockade and court-martialed or received and OTH discharge. In the 1970s there was a Trainee Expedient Discharge for those couldn't cut it.
The military is always going back and forth between micromanaging and over regulating and encouraging individual initiative and people using their heads. Then there is the problem that training commands are too often used as dumping grounds for people the line units don't want and there is a certain stigma to being assigned to them.
One Marine I knew in the 1970s told me one Commandant of the Marine Corps answered the complaints of those who said recruits were graduating Boot Camp and not properly trained and disciplined by ordering that everybody had to do a tour on the Parade Deck as Parris Island was called.

 

[Smoke]

If one pays attention in boot camp they will realize it's all scripted and regimented.
And drill instructors are the funniest people on earth. Honestly, they are hilarious.

Literally The Minute my basic training platoon graduated our Drill Sergeants (Ssg Weir & Sgt. Muldrow) became different people towards the trainees. It was like the show was over and they could quit playing their characters.

 

[steelslaver]

"Anybody wanna smoke?" and some fool said "Yes Drill Sgt!"
Drill Sgt lit him up, and promptly put a galvanized bucket over the fool's head, and started yelling "Smoke, c'mon, you wanna smoke you ***, now ^&**^#@ smoke, I wanna see smoke!!!" and he puffed until he puked.
Nobody ever wanted a smoke after that.

2. - Sunday was supposedly a day off, but if you stayed around the barracks and tried for a nap, you'd for sure be on a work detail by 0900. With slick sleeves and a knob haircut, you'd be ID'ed as a trainee anywhere on post, and no matter where you went, you dare not lie down or immediate work detail would ensue.
trenches.

3. - Our platoon leader's pet address to us was "You [guano]birds are this that and the other..."
Recall that your footlocker at the base of the iron bunk was not for actual use,

be the first to go to combat in Vietnam, maybe next month.
Sobering thought, but as hot and dirty as we were, we just wanted to get through the next day, one more day closer to getting out of Ft. Jackson and being a nobody, a knob-headed cipher of a trainee.

A 1969 Marine boots Sunday meant you could sit outside in the platoons street on your foot locker, shine your boots clean your rifle and your brass, write a letter home, you could not go to the head (toilet) or quonsets without permission. At the time your faiths service was held, those of you of that faith would form up and go to that service and straight back. You would still do PT etc. just a way lighter day'

The street was actually an asphalt road about 12ft wide with about 8' of sand on each side. The sand was called the pits in the daylight and where the DIs put you to PT. At night after everyone showered it was called the grass and every boot had too haul 2 buckets of water and use them to water the "grass")

We formed up and as a group went the toilets together, showers and shaves. If you needed to go to the bathroom at another time the procedure was this. Address the DI, Sir Pvt name request permission to speak sir. He would reply something like "speak Maggot". Answer "Sir pvt name request permission the make an unscheduled head call sir". Then, he would or would not give permission.

In the Marine Corps the DI would say the smoking lamp is lite for one cigarette. This meant the smokers could smoke one cigarette. Getting caught smoking was not a good plan. Something similar to the bucket on head would occur and mass punishment. One guy gets caught smoking and the whole platoon was punished with PT.

We had no wall lockers. All the gear we had was in our foot lockers or seabag.

This was in the days of Vietnam and we were constantly told we were going there. Being a dumb xxx would get you and your fellow Marines killed. War was our business and business was good. Kill kill kill.

We too just wanted to get through the day and make it to the end and have boot camp over with. The threat of being held back, being sent to motivation or physical conditioning and having to spend more time there was a real motivation.

In truth most of the actual physical abuse occurred during say the first 4 weeks. After that it was the threat of it and the mental games and the punishment via PT. Anything real or reprieved brought on the dreaded "In the pits command" On the parade deck while practicing close order drill the command was on your knuckles, Which meant assuming the pushup position with you fist's knuckles on the asphalt ready to begin an untold number of pushups.

My brother told me of focusing on some small shell or bit of shell as he did pushups, bends and thrusts or whatever and how the sand shifted and moved the shell from your movements. I laughed and told him I did the same thing. No thirst, no tired, no ache no heat. Just the shell.

Even doing the on your backs on your belly on your feet on your knees, drill where the DI screamed out how to be you would look to see where the shell went the next time you went face down in the sand.


Once at 43, during the January Opilio crab season in the Bering sea we ended up beating ice off the boat for 32 hours with no sleep. In my mind was "at least it is not Boot camp and I can leave whenever the boat went to shore or went alongside a processor."

I have worked drilling rigs, commercial fishing boats, worked asphalt in the summertime, etc.

Everything has been easy since August, September and October of 69. LOL

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
In the Marine Corps the DI would say the smoking lamp is lite for one cigarette. This meant the smokers could smoke one cigarette. Getting caught smoking was not a good plan. Something similar to the bucket on head would occur and mass punishment. One guy gets caught smoking and the whole platoon was punished with PT.
...

Army-wise, when it was OK to smoke, the Drill Sergeants would say "smoke em if you got em."

If someone got caught smoking when they weren't supposed to, the DS's would take the smoker, have them sit on a chair in front of the platoon, and have them smoke a couple cigarettes while the rest of the platoon got smoked doing PT.

The platoon put an end to the guy trying to sneak cigarettes. Team accountability.

 

[Sistema1927]

Literally The Minute my basic training platoon graduated our Drill Sergeants (Ssg Weir & Sgt. Muldrow) became different people towards the trainees. It was like the show was over and they could quit playing their characters.

Yes. The day that we graduated, my Drill Sgt took me to lunch at the NCO club, kid you not. As i mentioned earlier, I went through BCT as an E-4. As such, I couldn't go to the EM club on a pass like the others in my company, and I certainly wasn't going to go to the NCO club even though I was eligible.

So, SSgt Trogdon took me to the NCO Club, bought my lunch, told me that he realized that he had ridden me pretty hard, and wished me luck in my military career.

 

[Golddollar]

Thanks to all of you for your service.

 

[sbrmike]

I will contribute a little more. There was no training in how to stress or play mind games with the trainees. I was an Infantryman on a two year stint as a Drill Sgt training Infantryman. I was going to see these guys again at some point in my career. We trained them hard, made them physically tough. The system, i.e. schedule, and the unknown were built in stressors.

Recycle or threat of recycle was a motivator. Number one, I was a Drill Sgt with an all volunteer force. These guys volunteered. They were fine young men. I would honestly tell them if today was a bad day to miss training, i.e. mandatory subjects taught outside the company, such as Rifle Qualification, stuff that had to be made up. On days that we had company training, I would sometimes have half the platoon on sick call at times because they put it off until it was a good day to miss training, as in company taught subjects that could easily be made up.

Now when I was in Basic training in the early 1970's at Ft Dix, it was a bit different in that the standards for induction were quite a bit lower; if you could walk upright and eat with a fork you could be considered a possible candidate for even OCS. We had guys who were borderline and probably bonafide mentally retarded in the ranks. I remember one guy in that category whom a Drill Sgt from another platoon told him to do something and the guy, not being a troublemaker in any sense of the word told him that he didn't have to listen to him as he was not his Drill Sgt. They took him to the before mentioned laundry room and tightened him up. I remember that day clearly. We asked him what did they do to you in there and he quickly and fearfully responded: "Nobody touched me, nobody hit me". I don't know what they did to him but they sure had his attention. It was sad as the guy really didn't know any better.

In closing they is no head game training for Drill Sgts. As stated before the schedule and the unknown take care of that. Part of that built in stress is having to perform a task completely to the "T" and in a time limit.

ETA: I will tell you this though. We hated when we got an E-4 or higher to train as a Relassification from a job that either peaked at a certain grade or he was rifted as in Reduction In Force and they would openly tell us that they were going back to their same job after they went through Infantry training. We made sure he experienced the entire Infantry experience while he was in our care!

 

[Ziggy2525]

Thanks to all of you for your service.

This is a popular thing to say now and it's very kind, but for me anyway, no thanks are necessary. I just did my job.

When I was 18, it never gave it much thought. Now in my mid-60's, I can honestly say it was an honor to have been able to serve. I love this country and opportunities it's afforded me. In no small part those were due to my WWII era parents and all sacrifices they and their generation made.

It breaks my heart to see the rioting we have going on now. Hopefully these are just growing pains to something better.

 

[S&WIowegan]

Army Basic training

I graduated college in June 1964 and had a student deferment that didn't expire until November '64. I was broke so I got factory jobs to support myself and waited for the Army to get me, I had decided I did NOT want to go down the path of avoiding the draft( I have 2 first cousins who went to seminary to avoid draft) and wasn't sure what I wanted to do next. Draft Board finally got me, sent me to Chicago induction center for a physical. That was just plain funny....most guys on the bus had letters and/or X-rays from doctors saying they were unfit to serve. I had hearing problems which showed up in the sound proof booth test; they thought I was faking so I took it again with same result. Still good to draft and Army didn't have to pay for hearing disability.

Finally, in April 1965 they drafted me and sent me to basic training via the oldest, smelliest train I've ever been on. Fort Knox for basic May and June 1965. Our company got new barracks which was a real luxury. I saw no physical brutality and very little hazing mainly because the company was full of NGs, ERs, USes and a contingent of RAs. Turned out the RAs were the problem guys...several in my platoon were "encouraged" to enlist my local sheriffs and/or judges. Two of those went AWOL the first night, got caught and sent back for nights in beast barracks and days with us. They went AWOL again later.

The only brutality was mental harassment of an RA who had severe physical and mental problems. The top training sergeant gave him a hard time until he cracked and got sent home. He had no chance to stay in the Army and the sergeant just accelerated the inevitable. I tried to help the guy but it was no use.

Basic really wasn't that hard if you were physically and mentally tough and could shoot and throw grenades....all good fun. When they sent us to be interviewed by Spec 4 personnel guys I asked for jump school because I wanted the extra money. The guy saw I was a college grad. and said something about finding something better. When I got my orders they were for Ft. Detrick in Maryland to be a bio lab assistant. None of the training staff had ever heard of the place so I looked it up, figured out how to get there and did the rest of my 2 yr. hitch working in research labs with civilian scientists.

I got my first job after the service because of my Army work. All in all a good two years.

 

[Drm50]

The dirtiest trick ever pulled on a new boot was pulled on me a 5 other guys. They were putting guys on weekend duties KP, CQ, and various guard duties. The is was when they still had WACs. There were many rumors what could happen to guys on guard duty at WACs barracks. Naturally we broke cardinal rule and volunteered for guard duty on the WACs. We was like a bunch of kids on Christmas. Couldn't wait to climb on that Deuce and a half taking us to the promised land. Well got a rude awakening. Seems someone wasn't to good at spelling. What we ended up pulling guard on was building full of 5gal cans of floor WAX, not WACs we had expected. I bet they pulled that trick every cycle.

 

[fiasconva]

I was in basic at Lackland AFB during the Jimmy Carter era, Oct '71. Evidently,about halfway through it, the powers above decided basic was too harsh and needed to be toned down. It was like a boy scout camp already. The TI's were not happy. When we fell out for formation that first morning our old Tech Sgt barked, "Ten Hut, Please!" and with every command, like left face or right face or forward march, he added the word "Please". It was hilarious!

 

[ben_g1]

Fort Polk July 1969-Dec.1969 oh what fun.
Was a fit guy at that age. Probably why they never said anything when we'd sneak out the back of the barracks to the garbage truck to load up on junk food.

After getting discharge in 1971 always thought how it would be more fun going thru it again knowing what you knew.

All the DI's I have known were nice guys if you knew them on the "outside".

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

At Fort Dix in the Summer of 1967, we were restricted to the company area for the first 3 weeks, then we had Post privileges, then those who scored over 400 on the PT test then those fired Expert got passes, a weekend pass for everyone the last weekend before graduation.
In our class that covered dealing with the heat the lieutenant said the only way to deal with the heat was to stay well hydrated, the lister bag and your canteen cup were your friends, they pushed salt tablets on us. They had the heat phases, it was a point of pride with us that we marched back to the barracks during a Heat Phase IV with full gear and M-14s and nobody fell out.
Shortly after I graduated from BCT, they replaced the grenade throw in the PT test with the fireman's carry. Too many people were boloing it.

 

[steelslaver]

I love to hear "Thank you for your service". But, not because I want or even deserve any thanks. I like it because it shows me America learned something very good. That gives me a warm fuzzy. I will admit I do like the parking spot at Home Depot.

Things have changed since the early 70s when you often heard some pretty hurtfully things

No matter your feelings on the Iraq and Afghanistan "conflicts" there has been a huge change in the public view, treatment of those who serve or served since the Vietnam "conflict" Even those who opposed those wars don't blame and vilify the troops. "Thank you for your service" is a long way from "Baby Killer"

Think about it in those days, with the draft, a huge share of the troops had little choice. Yet, terrible things were screamed at them all they and they were despised by a large segment of our society. Now its all volunteer and nobody is blaming the troops. They are treated with respect by the vast majority.

I much prefer the "Thank you for your service" attitude.

America has problems, It always has had. But, we learn and its not all bad folks.

 

[pistolpete10]

If you were smart enough to understand what basic training was all about you would have no trouble. It wasn't meant to be personal, in fact the direct opposite. Boots that had trouble usually brought it on themselves.
In Military "stuff" goes down hill and DI is last on the chain.

This isn't necessarily true from what I saw go on at Polk or at Ft> Hood, a whole bunch of unnecessary B.S. went on. Idiotic stuff.

 

[BearBio]

I was a draft volunteer after college, 22 years old. Lots of carbs, solid and liquid, made me a candidate for an extra run before breakfast, and yes, also a road guard. That worked wonders. Came out of basic in great shape. Never saw much in the way actual physical abuse. OK, leg lifts and front leaning rest when not running. Nobody I saw got hit. Wouda been drafted the next month, so nothing heroic going on.
Considered myself an accomplished test-taker, and gave the best scores I could. Not like the smart younguns who thought they would resist authority. Always bad idea.

Much the same for me (#31 on the first draft; lost my student deferment and Nixon didn't renew hardship deferments (wife, kid, and student). Except, I was borderline skinny. Failed PT (as I said earlier) due to being ill.

Quote: "The only brutality was mental harassment of an RA who had severe physical and mental problems. The top training sergeant gave him a hard time until he cracked and got sent home. He had no chance to stay in the Army and the sergeant just accelerated the inevitable. I tried to help the guy but it was no use."

As I said, I worked OJT in the Orderly Room as a clerk. One of my duties was typing CMs and some transfers. We had a hardcore addict caught selling drugs (heroin) in an undercover sting. He went to a General Court and got a Dishonorable and 10 years at Ft Leavenworth. His IQ was really low (A Cat 2=that meant he was legally a moron=one step above an idiot). He never should have been in the military! As he sat handcuffed and I was typing his transfer for the CO to sign, he asked if I thought they'd let him stop at his mother's place for dinner and, if so, could he call her on my desk phone? I REALLY felt sorry for him.

Another time, I had to escort a guy through to the bus terminal for Terminal Leave ("Go home and we'll mail your Undesirable Discharge to you!"). Had to take him, in cuffs, through his last physical, draw his last pay, turn in his uniform, etc. They gave me a .45 and one clip (magazine) of ammo. I said, what do you want me to do with this? "He wants out of the Army, as of midnight he's no longer under military control" (he had a dozen or so AWOLs and lived, literally, in Haight-Ashbury=this was '72). I said" If he rabbit's on me, I certainly am not going to shoot him"

Funny point: Took him through his physical and there was an MP SSG just ahead of us getting his physical but he was escorting some prisoners through theirs. He had his fatigue hat on, an MP armband, a pistol belt and paper shoes=nothing else-just chomping on an unlit cigar!