Buying Here for Resale > New Rules

It has been a learning experience here.
I look at the classified section daily.
Make some comments here and there.
I have noticed a lot of "fast sales" I was once a quick draw artist myself.
28-2 in less than 2 minutes with no pic. I was lucky and chose to move based on the written description and honorable experience here. I lucked out for sure.
I wanted a 28-2 so I could give one to each of my sons. It was my 1st S&W back in 1974.
Anyhow I made it by seconds.
As nice as tap whatever is I do believe it to be an impersonal unfair advantage.
I can have it yes. I won't do it because I just don't want to dehumanize my experiences and interactions.
I have hesitated on posting a WTT on my Python on the internet just because I would prefer to have it go to a "good home" not flipped.
Not that I am against trading or selling.

If someone is just in it for a buck then post WTB and let the seller make his/her choice based on the post history.

Nothing is perfect.
 
pace40 said:
I think the real answer lies in Lee's opening post.

Since this discussion specifically relates to the board for sellers to sell their guns and since, as Lee boldly stated in opening,


Originally Posted by handejector

I want you all to note that I have had NO complaints from sellers about this issue.

I think we have 4 pages of spirited, but wasted bandwidth. :D
Click to expand...
I don't think so. As Lee stated, and you have emphasized, the sellers don't feel they have a problem. They have chosen to offer their firearms at fixed prices. As we all know, some of these are real bargains. The question under discussion is who is going to benefit from these bargain offers.

To repeat, no one who is serious is claiming that the sellers are being cheated. No one is claiming that the buyers are being cheated. However, given the facts, some POTENTIAL buyers are claiming that they were closed out of the possibility of participating in some of these once-in-a-lifetime good deals, by the actions of a few individuals, apparently (or perhaps by definition) dealers, who are scoffing up most or all of the good deals. Lee, who pays (with some help from us) for this marketplace, has decided to try to set right this apparent inequality.

I, for one, feel that he HAS recognized a misuse of his marketplace, one that stomps on the possibilities of regular but not 24-7 users of this forum to participate in the benefits of buying here. His modest limitation seems to me to be a good one.

This is not about free markets. This marketplace ALREADY has restrictions. It is not about sellers' or buyers' rights. Since it's Lee's site, they don't have any, anyway, but if they did, they would find that only the right to auction is being restricted, and nobody is complaining about that, anyway, and it is not what Lee proposes to change. This is about letting a few individuals get all the goodies freely offered, and Lee has attempted to change that.

Good for him! It's good for almost all of us, too.

P.S. I guess I was three minutes late with five minutes of typing. Lee just said it much better in the revised post #2 linked to in his post #204. Check it out.
 
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There are always discussions on the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. I think the spirit of this forum is to exchange ideas, knowledge, and sometimes guns. The letter of the law says anyone can log on, comply with its rules, and buy anything they want. This is a forum, not a democracy. If Lee wants to narrow the gap between spirit and letter that is up to him.Those that don't like it will move on. I see no problem with that at all.
 
I have reached the stage in my collecting that the guns I want are both difficult to find and darned expensive. I check the classified almost daily. Many times I've seen something I was interested in only to find it had already been sold. In all the years I have been a member of this forum I have bought exactly two guns here. I was just lucky enough to catch them right after they were posted. I figured I was just too slow and that's the way it was.
Yet, up until now, I've been all for leaving things alone. However, in light of the new information Lee added to post #2, I have changed my mind.

A handful of buyers, like FIVE or LESS, are buying something like 60-80% (maybe more) of the truly choice guns presented for sale here
Click to expand...

WOW! I had no idea that the problem was this bad. Therefore, I have changed my mind. I am still against adding more rules or restrictions. But I do feel that this is primarily a place for S&W enthusiasts to gather, exchange information and ideas and buy or sell guns to help other enthusiasts build their collections. Not a place for questionable individuals to make a buck.

Apparently these five or so buyers are well known to Lee and his staff. I am now of the opinion that these individuals should be looked at closely and on a case by case basis. If they are regular contributors to the discussions on this forum, by all means, let them stay.
If it turns out that the majority of their posts are simply "I'll take it" then they should be banned or at least have their access to the For Sale forums removed.

I do still oppose adding new rules. However, I have no problem with taking out the trash.
 
I have kept up with this entire thread, I've posted a few times. I've tried to have an open mind and consider some of the points that are posted along the lines of , if it aint broke don't fix it, etc. Some of them are good friends (like you Howie, (xfuzz) , but in my opinion , it is broke and needs to be fixed.

I see this as similar to what is going on with 22 lr, as we speak. I use to be able to go to Walmart and get a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk and a brick of 22s. Now , its just bread and milk.

That's because someone was waiting for the truck and bought a pallet of them so they could sell it for 80.00 a brick. That helps no one except the guy that bought the pallet. It's even turned people into hoarders who otherwise would never be. Because they know they can't just run down and get some when they need it and want some on hand when they are ready to shoot. Walmart has placed restrictions on quantity because enough customers complained. Why should they care? If they get the same amount anyway? Why? Because its not right and isn't a level playing field. And enough good customers complained. The best case on this is bricks that use to be 15.00 will now be 25.00, when available.

That's what the big gorilla is trying to do here. Is it going to be without problems? Probably not, but it definately has gotten to the point where something needs to be done.

Another good friend I met here, Tom, (230fmj) told me a saying that I really like and use often. There's a place for the sheep and a place for the wolves, but when the pigs get there they ruin it for everyone.
 
handejector said:
The dealers are NOT trash.
They are simply working our ads a little too hard.
Remember- I have to make this work for the sellers also. If members do not want the gun and a dealer does, GO for it, AFTER it has been up for 24 hours.
That is a Win/Win/Win-
Regular Members had their shot
Seller sold a gun
Dealer bought a gun

To be blunt, let's see if members put their money where their mouths are. ;)
________________

Addressing some points that have been raised-

Buying for Resale-
A buyer knows why he is buying the gun, so we are speaking of intent. Those who have expressed concern that they are now locked out of buying for 24 hours because they hold an FFL need not worry on that score alone. If buying the gun for resale, act honorably and wait 24. If buying it 'for yourself', go ahead.
If you buy a gun for yourself and later need to sell due to finding a grail gun or a better example, you aren't flipping the gun. Maybe you could then sell it here......
I realize 'intent' can be hard to track. We have many, many members who watch ALL the venues. Between them, they'll see it ALL. They seem very willing to send us links to ads here AND the link to the auction or ad. ;)
Sure, some guns bought in less than 24 to be flipped will get by us, but I feel very confident most cheaters will eventually get outed. You are all invited to help. ;)

Auctions
Not on my watch.
We don't have the software or the manpower to make them work.
Give it up- AIN'T Happening.

Post Counts Requirements
We always get the suggestion that we should require a minimum post count to buy or sell here.
No, No, NO!
For the HUNDREDTH time, NO!
They do nothing good, and plenty that is bad.
One BAD thing it can do is keep some good guns off the board when people have inherited a gun- they want to make one post to find out what it is and the value, and then place an ad. ;)
Do you REALLY want pre-war guns going somewhere else because we require 6 months here or 50 posts? :eek:

Donations
The dealers we speak of ARE donors (or perhaps used to be now :(). We won't be requiring new buyers or sellers to donate. Members who sell regularly or buy regularly are asked to donate at the Silver level.

Notifications
The forum software has a notification feature built in. You can subscribe to forums or threads and be notified when new posts are made in them. They are not instant. If we turn them off for one forum, they go off for all forums. We won't be turning them off at this time.
Tapatalk is an app for smart phones. It more or less gives you a mini-view of the forum on the phone. Without Tapatalk, I am told the forum looks very lousy. Tapatalk will give instant notifications. Again, it is all or NONE. We won't be turning them off, either. We/you can't stop progress. I'm sure the Pony Express hated telegraphs and railroads. I'm sure railroads hated to see airplanes come along and I'm sure telegraphs hated to see telephones invented.
Tried to find a pay phone lately?
_________________

I've thought long and hard over this.
Running a forum is like being a world class chess master- you need to think at least 8 moves ahead or you'll be found wanting. ;)
Remember back-
When I bought the board, PMs were turned OFF.
NO registrations were allowed with a free email account.
"I'll Take It" WAS required in every ad.
You were NOT allowed to list a gun here and somewhere else.
I decided you deserved PM's, the right to privacy on a sale if desired, whatever email you liked, and the right to list elsewhere IF you have enough sense to tend to your ad and mark items sold.
The 24 hour delay for buyers who resell can work well for the members- both buyers and sellers. I do realize that it won't be popular with resellers, but this board's ads are not intended to be a crop that is harvested by resellers after being planted by someone else. That equates to pillaging.

So, we will do what it takes.
We may have to go back to requiring a posted "I'll Take It" to keep things in the light.
We may have to again require that items be listed only here, and that they be listed for at least 5-7 days before they can be withdrawn to prevent suspicious withdrawals.
Trust me here- I've already thought of many ways a 'game' can be run.
I'd much rather have voluntary compliance.
Click to expand...


Just so you know what I see on my smart phone is no different then what I see on the computer at the house.
 
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Well, it seems as though our fearless leader is closing in on a final decision..at least that's the way it looks to me.

After reading his posts at the head of this thread and hearing discussion on both sides, I can support some reasonable guidelines that basically ensure those few who show no courtesy to other members to do just that.

I am an admin for a fairly large Facebook group for buying and selling ATV's and other powersports items. I can relate to trying to figure out a feasible solution that at least the majority of the membership is pleased with. Just like in my FB group, the rules need not be enforced on the vast majority, yet are there because of a few...

For what it's worth from an every day fellow like me, carry on Lee, I think you are on track to the best solution.
 
I do like looking in the For Sale section, just to see the features and "options" on a firearm as listed and get to see a picture of just what that means. Also, this will tell how much I would need to save to get a baseline of what something might be worth, assuming it sells at or near the asking price.
I have not bought or sold on this forum, just still in the "newbie" stage learning about the models of the S&W's.
I do not have an answer, but think that if a person gets the asking price or an item being sold, it should not matter what the buyer does with it.
I would like to think that a person selling a firearm assumes that the buyer will become the next "caretaker" of it, and not flip it. However, this is the real world, and the results my vary.
 
If something isn't done, I see in the future everyone listing a gun for sale putting a sky high price and seeing if someone bites and then lowering a little each day until someone does at a reasonable price.

I do like two suggestions so far,:
1. Only X number of purchases per year per member...
2. Letting the seller declare if they do not want o sell to a dealer... purchase.
 
Im sure this has been noted in a previous remark, but just wanted to add my 2 cents. It kinda stinks that a person like myself that doesnt have the opportunity to sit and check the site minute to minute loses out on "quick sales", but I have mixed feelings on a 24hr rule too. Love the site and thanks to all that maintain it, im sure it will work out.
 
05CarbonDRZ said:
I find it interesting that no Dealers have made a post in this Thread.Oh Yeah....Thats right....They only read the Classifieds...:)
Click to expand...

Your last post, Alex, is a below-the-belt, total lack-of-class insult to the eyes and ears of every member of this Forum. I purposed shortly after this thread began not to insert my personal opinion(s) into what anyone with one eye and half a brain could see was going to be another divisive Forum cat-fight. However, YOU have crossed a line that I refuse to ignore, write-off or excuse. Therefore, I choose to answer your tasteless post on behalf of all of us who have "Dealer" tattooed behind our last names, regardless how it got there - by choice or design, accident or intent.

Some of us Forum members who have been around the gun collecting community for a respectable period of time, whether:

1) Professional dealers who run a successful full-time business (like me..), nearly all of whom are dead-serious collectors in their own right

and....

2) Some other 'dealers' (see Lee's definition of 'dealer' in one of his later posts to this thread),

and....

3) The pure-bred, stone-cold avid collectors who sell virtually nothing ever,

...... have learned something you haven't - to exercise (read, lean on) tact, diplomacy and good manners enough to keep our public mouths shut as opposed to purposely attacking and/ or defaming another member or group of the firearms collecting community.

Your several posts in this thread have added nothing less than what once was "100-octane White Amoco" to a fire that really shouldn't have been started to begin with. Sadly, it's just more of the 'flaming', demeaning-degrading sarcastic commentary that you far too often post in far too many threads, comments that I and many others have silently observed for far too long without making you as accountable as you demand that the rest of us must be.

As a dealer, and as a Forum member, I am personally offended by your remarks. As a friend and colleague of others on this Forum that you demean in this post, and for everyone else on this Forum that has up to this point either tolerated or suffered your verbal slights, as well as the untold number who've had to read so many of your 'comments' to be able to read to the end of a given thread, I am offended for them also.

I don't intimidate very well, Alex, as quite a number of folks that we all know will tell you. With my comments here I make the decision stand up for myself and other members and speak as directly as I know how, to you - publicly.

Whether anyone else agrees with me on this, publicly or privately, matters not at all. I believe with every fiber of my being that you owe the entire membership of this Forum a public apology, most especially the 'Dealers' among us who, in faithful support of every aspect of the Forum, PAY for the privilege of of buying and selling regularly in the Classified Section.


David Carroll

[email protected]
205-531-7002
 
Somebody is a little bit sensitive....

Here's the thing. If it wasn't a real issue, there wouldn't be hundreds of posts regarding the subject in such a short time frame.
 
THE PROBLEM, as described in post 2 is exactly what has caused my
increasing feelings of disgust. I have only bought two guns from the
classifieds here so far but I have seen several others listed for sale
that I would have bought but they were sold before I ever saw the
listing. Some of this is entirely normal, ya snooze ya lose, but lately
the situation has drastically changed. Any desirable gun posted at a
decent price is sold in 1-3 minutes and all to the same very few buyers.
It has become obvious to me that the chance of buying a gun I would
like to own at any reasonable price is zero. Members claiming to be
collectors but then boasting that they can easily make money on any
desirable S&W don't act or sound like collectors. Some people just
have an arrogant "me first always" attitude that gives them that sense
of entitlement. I'm a little surprised that so many other members
seem to share my strong feelings of resentment toward these few
self styled winners. I'm also impressed by the forum owner's keen
insight and ability to accurately perceive the core of various issues
between members. There is no way this gunbuying issue can be
resolved without upsetting some people and it's not the members'
place to set policy, by popular vote or any other way. It really falls
on the owner to set policy based on his own concept of what the
forum should be. It's not really about who's right and who's wrong
but about the atmosphere of the S&W forum that he feels best
represents his vision.
 
Okay, I'll stick my neck out:

I have a Smartphone (and a tablet) & I occasionally browse the forum (& Internet) with it. Mainly it's too hard on my eyes so I don't use it much, mostly when I'm bored & don't have the desktop on. When I do use it for the forum, it looks the same, just smaller, therefore I don't see that I need Tapatalk for that. I also don't install any apps I feel I can't live without (don't need anymore people snooping on me either). I'm guessing most people here don't use it either (or didn't even know about it until now, like me) or, just don't have a device that can run it.

No doubt it has good & useful points I'm unaware of, but to me having it enabled for use on the "For Sale" forum partially defeats the spirit (my perceived spirit) of the forum sales & gives those that use it's instant alerts an (unfair?) advantage.

If less than half a dozen people are inciting the contemplated changes I wonder how many of the others that scoop up the remaining desirables quickly are also using Tapatalk to get a jump on it? (stats on the provider's end?). I understand technology moves on but that doesn't mean it has to have a place everywhere, every time.

Lee, I know you already stated your thoughts on this, which I respect, but if it's not set in stone yet, that's mine, for what it's worth.

.
 
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