Canadian .455's in .45 Colt

[Wiregrassguy]

In the SCSW, 4th and Roy's History of S&W, there is mention of 74 .455 2nd models that were chambered in .45 Colt for the Canadian government. Roy says no record was kept of the serial numbers associated with these guns. Has anyone done any research on these 74 guns that can give us a SN range they may be in?

 

[S&W ucla]

Maybe for RCMP? They carried C@1t New Service in 45LC for many years.

The perfect calibre for battling the likes of Snidely Whiplash!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

LOL. Yep, that's the speculation but I don't think anyone knows for sure.

 

[Hondo44]

Yes, I have a serial #, see below. The total number has more uncertainty than any other model or version of a model I've ever read:

By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

*"Roy's comments on that model might be helpful here [regarding an original Factory .45 Colt # 747xx that shipped on May 4, 1917]:" Bob 'Bettis1'

"Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 plus units of 2nd Models that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately the manufacturing records did not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list, in this same time period, the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled." Roy Jinks

"The 727 [724]number could be correct but there have only been a small number that are from this shipment, less than 20 documented." Jim Fisher 'bmg60'
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139085603

 

[Wiregrassguy]

That serial number seems awfully high for an early 1917 shipment. I have a commercial .455 in the 69xxx range that shipped in December 1917 to Shapleigh. 747xx seems pretty close to last production which was 74755 according to SCSW4th.



The reason I ask is I've run across a marked .455 in the 61xxx range that chambers .45 Colt and there is no evidence it has been modified...cylinder is intact, no recessed chambers, no shaving of the recoil shield. There are no military or government stamps on it and it is in high condition. I suppose the only way to know is a letter.

 

[model3sw]

Maybe for RCMP? They carried C@1t New Service in 45LC for many years.

The perfect calibre for battling the likes of Snidely Whiplash!

I have a New Service I've been meaning to letter for the past 15 years that I believe is (or might be) RCMP. I just cannot remember precisely what Bill Powell had stated to me about that, particular, NS.

Didn't Colt intentionally leave many of the contract guns chambered to and chamber both .455 and .45LC calibers ?

Bill Powell (RIP) had shared his vast knowledge of the New Services on a few occasions. I had purchased several Colt NS from him, the suspect RCMP is one of them. Bill's collection of Colts and S&Ws were nothing short of magnificent. I jumped at the opportunity to purchase some (a very few) of his vast collection.

I suppose I have no choice but bite the bullet (so to speak) to get Colt letters on all of them.

I also have SN 9xx Mark II Triple Lock I suppose I should letter, too. The Triple-Lock numbers are confusing in the Mark II as some were converted from the .44s in stock and another series for the Brits, so there are some duplicate serial number triple locks.

 

[S&W ucla]

Didn't Colt intentionally leave many of the contract guns chambered to and chamber both .455 and .45LC calibers ?

They had both calibres in service, several thousand. Before that were Enfield MkIIs in .476. NWMP, then RNWMP, then RCMP markings on handguns. Some just marked MP. They were well armed for the day.

 

[Hondo44]

That serial number seems awfully high for an early 1917 shipment. I have a commercial .455 in the 69xxx range that shipped in December 1917 to Shapleigh. 747xx seems pretty close to last production which was 74755 according to SCSW4th.

The reason I ask is I've run across a marked .455 in the 61xxx range that chambers .45 Colt and there is no evidence it has been modified...cylinder is intact, no recessed chambers, no shaving of the recoil shield. There are no military or government stamps on it and it is in high condition. I suppose the only way to know is a letter.

Yes, that would be a very interesting letter. Often when Smith had an order for a specific configuration of a model, like the 45 Colt chambering, of the 2nd Model, they would assign a block of future serial numbers and jump ahead of what current production numbers were. And they may be completed and ship earlier than some lower #s not yet used.

Of course there's always their other idiosyncrasy of paying no attention to # chronology when assembling guns.

 

[Hondo44]

I also have SN 9xx Mark II Triple Lock I suppose I should letter, too. The Triple-Lock numbers are confusing in the Mark II as some were converted from the .44s in stock and another series for the Brits, so there are some duplicate serial number triple locks.

There are 3 versions of 455 TLs made during the British contract period with some sold commercially. (There are also a couple of dozen regular production "44 HE TLs - 1st Model" commercially produced in 455 prior to the contract and not made for the British):

# 9XX is a "455 Hand Ejector-1st Model", the 2nd version (and most common 455 TL) supplied to the British all serial numbered in the British # range 1 - 5461.

The 1st version (#s 1104 to 10417), and 3rd version (all 5 digit #s) are the "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model" built as/converted to 455 at the factory and numbered in the regular 44 Special # range (most known in 12,000 range).


There are no 3 digit serial # duplicates.

There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), in #s 1104-3320 of the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.

 

[Hondo44]

They had both calibres in service, several thousand. Before that were Enfield MkIIs in .476. NWMP, then RNWMP, then RCMP markings on handguns. Some just marked MP. They were well armed for the day.

The two calibers of 455 and 45 Colt posed an interesting dilemma for them.

1904 'Royal' was bestowed upon the NWMP and they became the RNWMP. The Colt New Service was 1st ordered, and they were chambered in .455 Eley & re-ordered 3 more times thru 1914.

1918 they switched to the .45 Colt chambered NS. This is the period that 724 S&W "455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Models" chambered in 45 Colt were ordered by the RNWMP. No serial # list known, all produced by Feb 1916, Pg. 203 H of S&W.

1920 RNWMP merged w/the Dominion Police Force to become a Canadian wide force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).

1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys was ordered. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colt chambered guns were moved to eastern Canada and all 455 Eleys to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.

1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired and the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police (Pre mod 10) was adopted (thought to be 5 ½" barrels).

1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.

Revolvers were usually stamped with variations of the RCMP letters. Of the 3,195 Colt NS revolvers, only 2800 were actually stamped with an issue number.


Yes they were well armed, for a long period they used Model 1876 lever action rifles chambered in .45-75.

 

[Toyman]

Also the Canadian Navy ordered New Service revolvers in 45 Colt in WW 2 I have not info on WW1.

 

[gjamison]

This is chambered in 45 Colt, could this be one of the guns you're talking about?

 

[jimmyj]

In 1965 I had a Colt N/S in .45 Colt caliber that had "NWMP" factory stamped on the back strap. In 1970 I had a Smith and Wesson "N" frame w/ 5.5" barrel that was chambered in .45 Colt caliber. It appeared to be a factory chambered caliber

 

[Wiregrassguy]

This is chambered in 45 Colt, could this be one of the guns you're talking about?

Probably not. The stamps make that look like a military gun to me.

 

[Absalom]

This is chambered in 45 Colt, could this be one of the guns you're talking about?

This one appars to have both British (Enfield acceptance stamps and crossed pennant proof) and Canadian arrow-in-a-C military property stamps and therefore likely made its way from British into Canadian hands someplace where Brits and Canadian troops fought alongside each other.

 

[Hondo44]

This is chambered in 45 Colt, could this be one of the guns you're talking about?

Being stamped 455 on the barrel also clearly indicates it was originally produced for the 455 MK II cartridge. So it's been converted to 45 Colt.

If the chamber mouths have been recessed for the thicker Colt case rim, it'll still properly and safely shoot the 455 because of it's wider rim, it will not fit in the Colt chamber recesses and therefore still have proper headspace.

Recessed chambers for 45 Colt is the best method of conversion.

 

[Toyman]

I have researched the guns purchased for the Mounted Police in a book entitled 'ARMS AND ACCOUTREMENTS OF THE MOUNTED POLICE 1873 TO 1973" and I can not find any reference to the purchase of S&W revolvers in 45 caliber. There is reference to some smaller S&W top breaks and S&W 38/44 revolvers transferred to RCMP when the RCMP took over the British Columbia Provincial Police in 1950.

 

[Hondo44]

Google it and you'll find info and other sources.