Faulkner
Member
Factory for carry.
Reloads for hunting and practice.
Reloads for hunting and practice.
Carry Ammo Survey -- Factory or Reloads?
- Thread starter ajpelz
- Start date
elcruisr
US Veteran
Here in the gunshine state no one cares what loads get used and there won't be civil court problems either with the current laws. So location can matter in the very remote chance it's brought up. I've carried both.
Marshal Tom
Member
I have been an LEO for 38 years and have read all the stuff regarding this issue. I still think that it comes down to whether it was a lawful/rightful shooting and that that is all that should matter. If I am camping and have a revolver that I always take camping or my shotgun loaded with slugs that I take along for a bear attack, and have to utilize it for self defense, so be it. Was the shoot lawful under the law. That is all that should matter. I think that people get way too hung up in the crap over reloads vs factory ammo. Just my humble opinion.
Tom
Tom
p0838
Member
Factory Loads
I generally carry handloads. 158 Gr. SWCHP's in .38 Special/.357; In 9mm, I stagger my loads in all my mags. Hornady 125 Gr. XTP's and Winchester 125 Gr. FMJ's are alternated. You never know what you'll have to shoot, or what you'll have to shoot through. I've been rolling my own since 1975.
wheelgun28
Member
A related story is that, you loaded up those super duper hot loads that can blow someones head clean off and then went looking for trouble. Or so the prosecutor will say. This can be used to show intent or premeditation.(perhaps if you have a video cabinet full of Charles Bronson movies they could do the same I dont know)
Probably an ol housewives tale...
Probably an ol housewives tale...
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captainjohnsofd
Member
NEVER use reloads for carry. Google the "Bias" case in New Jersey. A Dentist tried to disarm his suicidal wife who was holding his S&W 686 loaded with his target reloads. The gun discharged and she died. He was convicted of Murder. The Lab that did the tests screwed up and was partly responsible for his conviction. The case is under appeal as we speak. The prosecutor made a big deal of the reloads in court. DON'T!
I don't believe the Bias case is a good case for "no reloads".
Does Bias claim that: 1) He kept his 686 loaded with target loads normally, or 2) It was normally stored empty, and she loaded herself?
If it was the 2nd case, then the argument could be for "don't even reload at all". I don't think anyone would agree to stop reloading out of fear that someone could load up their ammo and commit a crime.
I've shot a lot of target .38 loads, with a variety of powders from vv N310 (clean) through Bullseye (dirty). They all produce lots of smoke, soot, ash, and other particles. I don't buy the defense argument that someone shooting himself with target loads wouldn't have GSR on him.
I'm not convinced Bias is innocent.
That said, I keep my .45 loaded with Speer 230 gr Gold Dots. I don't believe I can create better defense ammo than factory.
Does Bias claim that: 1) He kept his 686 loaded with target loads normally, or 2) It was normally stored empty, and she loaded herself?
If it was the 2nd case, then the argument could be for "don't even reload at all". I don't think anyone would agree to stop reloading out of fear that someone could load up their ammo and commit a crime.
I've shot a lot of target .38 loads, with a variety of powders from vv N310 (clean) through Bullseye (dirty). They all produce lots of smoke, soot, ash, and other particles. I don't buy the defense argument that someone shooting himself with target loads wouldn't have GSR on him.
I'm not convinced Bias is innocent.
That said, I keep my .45 loaded with Speer 230 gr Gold Dots. I don't believe I can create better defense ammo than factory.
captainjohnsofd wrote:
The above mentioned case was appealed after the first conviction and was overturned. The first time it was brought to trial it ended in a hung jury so the first conviction was the second time it went to trial. There was a third trial which ended in another conviction and it held after it was appealed.
From what little actual(?) information I could find on the case it appears that Mr. Bias was intoxicated at the time and had made some incriminating statements during the initial investigation. The doubt that caused the hung jury and the first conviction to be overturned wasn't a question of 'did he kill his wife' it was 'why did he kill his wife'.
Also, if the prosecution did make a big deal of the reloads in court, that would have contradicted the courts assertion that he had used the factory ammunition they claimed he used and the lab had tested. In other words; they would have shot down their own evidence. And if it was the "only" evidence, as has been stated in the past, any conviction based on that would have been overturned.
Captain John, as I understand it Mr. Bias has already served his time, was released and was recently arrested again for possession of weapons while under disability.
The above mentioned case was appealed after the first conviction and was overturned. The first time it was brought to trial it ended in a hung jury so the first conviction was the second time it went to trial. There was a third trial which ended in another conviction and it held after it was appealed.
From what little actual(?) information I could find on the case it appears that Mr. Bias was intoxicated at the time and had made some incriminating statements during the initial investigation. The doubt that caused the hung jury and the first conviction to be overturned wasn't a question of 'did he kill his wife' it was 'why did he kill his wife'.
Also, if the prosecution did make a big deal of the reloads in court, that would have contradicted the courts assertion that he had used the factory ammunition they claimed he used and the lab had tested. In other words; they would have shot down their own evidence. And if it was the "only" evidence, as has been stated in the past, any conviction based on that would have been overturned.
ajpelz wrote:
While the husband claimed the gun was loaded with handloads, the court claimed they were factory loads and refused to even look at the possibility they may not have been. This could happen with factory ammo and, according to one of our members who was also in the discussion, had.
Mr. Ayoobs reason for not using reloads is the lack of exemplar evidence that (some) factory ammo has available. Both of these discussions were on the old server so I don't know for sure if they are still available.
The case stated has been discussed in length, and well beyond, twice that I know of here. I think one was in reloading and the other maybe the lounge. It was written originally about by Mas Ayoob, a well known writer who also happens to be a forum member and he participated in both discussions.
While the husband claimed the gun was loaded with handloads, the court claimed they were factory loads and refused to even look at the possibility they may not have been. This could happen with factory ammo and, according to one of our members who was also in the discussion, had.
Mr. Ayoobs reason for not using reloads is the lack of exemplar evidence that (some) factory ammo has available. Both of these discussions were on the old server so I don't know for sure if they are still available.
BreakerDan
Member
- Joined
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Why don't we have the same argument over hollowpoint vs. ball.
The lawyers could use HP against you too.
IMHO, just make sure what you did was lawful.
In most areas, choice of ammo will probably not matter.
The lawyers could use HP against you too.
IMHO, just make sure what you did was lawful.
In most areas, choice of ammo will probably not matter.
after 40 plus yrs of reloading, only my loads. as stated earlier, i want to know what is in them. over the years i have had more duds with factory ammo than mine. if i have to use a gun, the last thing i will worry about is what ammo is in it.
m1gunner
US Veteran
This is really all that matters. If the shoot is questionable, it matters little what you use, only the lawyers will win and you will be left broke or in prison, possibly both.
Same here. No reason to give the defense attorney any 'ammo' to use against you.
I see no merit in this assertion. Every LE agency that I know of requires officers to carry HP ammo. No LE agency that I know of has allowed their officers to carry reloads while on duty. HP has advantages over ball for the shooter, perp, and bystanders. Faster incapacitation, less shots fired, and significantly less chance of over-penetration.
Isn't it true though that in a civil trial the facts (good shoot? carry what LEOs carry? just bought what was cheapest at Wal-Mart? handloads?) will matter less than how well the thespian-at-law can persuade the jurors of your badness?
ajpelz wrote:
Have you ever heard of a case where a prosecutor actually did accuse a defendant in a self defense shooting of any malice or bad intent for using handloads? This question has been asked many times on this discussion but no one has ever answered yes, yet. So if you are the first please let us know.
There was at least one case where a prosecutor did try to use factory hollow point ammunition against a defendant to claim he had malicious intentions. It was the Harold Fish case which has been discussed here along with the Daniel Bias case.
Saying you won't carry handloads to prevent something that has never happened is very smart. The reason the people that do carry handloads for self defense aren't responding to your "informal poll" is because they can't argue with that "logic". Especially when those who believe every thing they read in a gun magazine is gospel won't let them speak their mind without being criticized, scorned or flamed for their actions. The idea is based on folly instead of fact. It's amazing how many people say they carry factory only because of what people may say about them. How many of them carry firearms that say "magnum" or anything to do with "combat" or "tactical" or etc.? How many use high capacity magazines like the drug dealers and gang bangers do? How many are using hollow points, soft points or lead bullets that were originally developed for hunting? Do they have to have a gun writer tell them what phobias they need to have?
Next question...
Actually that assertion has more merit than your assertion that it's better to use factory ammo over reloads so the prosecution can't use it against you.
Have you ever heard of a case where a prosecutor actually did accuse a defendant in a self defense shooting of any malice or bad intent for using handloads? This question has been asked many times on this discussion but no one has ever answered yes, yet. So if you are the first please let us know.
There was at least one case where a prosecutor did try to use factory hollow point ammunition against a defendant to claim he had malicious intentions. It was the Harold Fish case which has been discussed here along with the Daniel Bias case.
Saying you won't carry handloads to prevent something that has never happened is very smart. The reason the people that do carry handloads for self defense aren't responding to your "informal poll" is because they can't argue with that "logic". Especially when those who believe every thing they read in a gun magazine is gospel won't let them speak their mind without being criticized, scorned or flamed for their actions. The idea is based on folly instead of fact. It's amazing how many people say they carry factory only because of what people may say about them. How many of them carry firearms that say "magnum" or anything to do with "combat" or "tactical" or etc.? How many use high capacity magazines like the drug dealers and gang bangers do? How many are using hollow points, soft points or lead bullets that were originally developed for hunting? Do they have to have a gun writer tell them what phobias they need to have?
Next question...
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acl864
Member
I carry handloads- not reloads. Virgin brass, every powder charge weighed, Fed Gold Medal Match primers individually inspected, bullets are also inspected before being seated and crimped. Any ammo can have a ftf due to a qc issue but I trust myself more than I trust ANY factory, no matter how quality oriented they claim to be. I don't give a rat's behind about what any lawyer may or may not do if use my handloads in a critical situation. If I'm on trial it means I survived. Job done.
