Carrying Concealed - And a Stranger goes for your weapon

[federali]

Different Times

In my introduction to formalized firearms training with NYPD during the 1960s, the instructors told us that one in five police officers shot with a handgun is shot with his own or his partner's gun. But, things were a bit different then: retention holsters usually were equipped with a single strap held in place by a snap fastener, holsters cannot retain revolvers as well as holsters made for semi-autos. Police now receive handgun retention training, or at least they should be, Today's holsters are far stronger than what was offered fifty years ago.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Today's holsters are far stronger than what was offered fifty years ago.

That reminded me of an article I read several years ago, probably back in the 90s. It described an incident where a police officer got knocked unconscious. He was wearing a Level III retention holster. Witnesses reportedly said that the attacker tried several times to get the officer's gun out of the holster, but couldn't, at one point lifting the officer's body off the ground.

 

[ContinentalOp]

If in doubt...... open hand slap to both ears.

Even better, do it with cupped hands.

 

[hardluk1]

ArmednDangerous On that rare occasion your not arms think about how you carry a knife or even a back up knife if legal or a a tactical pen like maybe under a watch band or wrist band . Don't want tactical make it a basic plastic bic with no cap . My flash light has scalloped edges on both ends and is just a bit longer then my hand and will peal a large chuck of tissue loss and if hand to hand go for the eyes and ears . If you can get a hand near an eye ball push and if you can also grab an ear it will make for some interesting screaming . I hung with a wilder crowd when young and I know a couple of these tricks that work well with doing major damage .

 

[Xfuzz]

If I were an unknown to you, a very bad hombre..
In a casual setting with general daily objects
within reach and I know your packing.

I will get your gun...

 

[Jon651]

I don't know how many others have noticed this besides myself, but I have seen more than a few folks over the years who were doing concealed carry but being pretty obvious about it, either through poor behavior habits or carelessness. If others can tell you're packing, then you are NOT carrying concealed.

My wife had to quietly approach another diner at a restaurant she was at because he was carrying in the small of his back - but because he was leaning forward the weapon was fully exposed and even if he tried to rise up in a non-emergent situation the pistol's grip would have caught on the back of the chair literally locking the chair onto his back. When she leaned over to whisper into his ear, he apparently learned that he wasn't all that good looking after all!

 

[Drm50]

You can carry back ups to back ups till the cows come home. Being alert to what's going on around you is a better defense. Don't put yourself in neighborhoods or situations that could turn into a problem. You are dealing with people that kill for tennis shoes. They won't hesitate to cave your head in with a brick. You can't stay far enough from these people. They say that a person 21 feet will knife you before you shoot him. I think both participants would have to be experts but that's close enough. The bad guy could grab you instead of knife you. Remember you don't know he's coming. Personally I think these SD classes should spend more time on awareness. Most people you could kill with a base fiddle because they are playing with phone or have earphones. They don't look before they cross the street.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

If I were an unknown to you, a very bad hombre..
In a casual setting with general daily objects
within reach and I know your packing.

I will get your gun...

I believe that in spite of some posters here saying otherwise, you are correct. If someone knows you are carrying concealed, and they want your gun bad enough....you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done 'differently'

Situational awareness becomes paramount. But even 100% on full alert, anyone can become a victim. Even John Correia.

 

[robrossk]

Thanks to the OP for sharing. Should give us all a warning and something to think about.

 

[WR Moore]

A couple of points here. Prison surveilance video has shown many instances of inmates practicing disarming techniques. The other point is from a Weapon Retention/Disarming Instructor class. A couple of folks had paddle holsters. They frequently lost both the firearm and holster.

 

[pharmer]

........ Criminals are all around. Everywhere you go. You will never be able to completely avoid the "bad element".
I do often carry OC spray.
This incident occurred in an apartment complex. People were around......

Whoa; I just got a major case of "heebie jeebies" like I've been here before. Please tell me this didn't happen in Lansing Michigan. Joe

 

[CB3]

I would be interested to know the size of gun that would have been carried or earlier seen by the person who attempted the grab, the placement of where that gun would have been, and if there were any clothing or other "tells" that this individual might have seen in earlier encounters. In other words, what set this guy up to do what he did? There HAD to be something.

I think this may be the most important part of this analysis/lesson.

Lastly, the decision to not wear your gun that day was based on the concern you were going to a bad place? Isn't that where you want to have your gun?

Not trying to be argumentative, but these are important factors related to this incident.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Prison surveilance video has shown many instances of inmates practicing disarming techniques. The other point is from a Weapon Retention/Disarming Instructor class. A couple of folks had paddle holsters. They frequently lost both the firearm and holster.

I took a training class several years ago and during part of the classroom portion the instructor showed photos from prison yards showing inmates practicing such techniques.

Retention is one of the reasons I like my Kramer IWB holster. It uses solidly attached belt loops, secured with Chicago screws, instead of clips. Also, the holster itself does a really good job of retaining the gun even though it's an open-top holster. The draw is smooth and easy, if the gun is pulled straight out the top. The gun is difficult to remove if the gun is pulled from behind. I know this because of my attempts at weak-hand drawing. Of course, concealment is another level of retention that shouldn't be ignored, IMO.

 

[Smoke]

If I were an unknown to you, a very bad hombre..
In a casual setting with general daily objects
within reach and I know your packing.

I will get your gun...

Or get shot. One if those two

I believe that in spite of some posters here saying otherwise, you are correct. If someone knows you are carrying concealed, and they want your gun bad enough....you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done 'differently'

I'm sorry but that is an entirely nonsensical statement.

"If they want your gun bad enough you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done differently"

I realize there's always the possibility but you do understand that you have a gun right? You are in possession of a deadly force multiplier. Can you see any possible use for a gun in that situation?

Situational awareness becomes paramount. But even 100% on full alert, anyone can become a victim. Even John Correia.

Not John and not Chuck Norris.

 

[Mike 139]

Not long ago I had an experience that shook me up a bit. I doubt many people ever think about it, but it happened to me.

I was out at a location I frequent due to my line of work. Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon.

On THAT particular day I did not carry but I usually did and I strongly suspect he noticed it one day and decided to pull that stunt later. Because of his background i suspect he was going to try to steal my weapon. I'm 200 lbs and muscular, and this guy was about 230 and about an inch shorter but built like a bouncer.

Keep in mind that if thugs are looking for a concealed carry person, the4y probably know exactly what to look for. That bulge. The extra long T shirt etc.

It honestly happened so fast it was over by the time I realized what he was doing.

..................................




But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.


I didn't think anything like this could happen to me but I was taken by surprise by the speed of it.
The damnedest thing would be to get shot by your own weapon.

This was an eye opening event for me and I've learned to always be alert because of it.

Have you ever had anything like this happen to you?

OP, Thankyou for sharing your situation and thoughts.... Police, who have to deal with People that are on drugs, or just plain Nuts, use Retention Holsters, On-Duty and off. A Level 3 Holster will give retention to the max.

A Survival technique is Visualization....You think thru a Scenario and how you would react to it before it happens.....In your example , You would place your hand over his on your weapon and if your weapon was on your Right, you would swivel hard right and with cupped hand striking the Ear hard or a Chin strike, forcing the Head back..opposite if your weapon is on your left, and step away to gain distance...

Fortunately, You didn't have to resort to that, because you weren't carrying, but ALWAYS watch their hands and ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings.

Talk to any Corrections Officer at a County jail or Prison and they'll tell you the inmates practice disarming techniques and teach it to each other.

Stay Safe.

 

[Oracle]

ArmedandDangerous you reacted the same way the vast majority of us would, including myself.

A "Bad Guy" will pick up in a New York second if a person is trying to maintain a buffer zone and will assume they are intimidating the "Good Guy". Who knows what their next move will be.

Cops are trained and retrained on weapon retention and unfortunately cops continue to lose their lives by their own weapons.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

OP, Thankyou for sharing your situation and thoughts.... Police, who have to deal with People that are on drugs, or just plain Nuts, use Retention Holsters, On-Duty and off. A Level 3 Holster will give retention to the max.

A Survival technique is Visualization....You think thru a Scenario and how you would react to it before it happens.....In your example , You would place your hand over his on your weapon and if your weapon was on your Right, you would swivel hard right and with cupped hand striking the Ear hard or a Chin strike, forcing the Head back..opposite if your weapon is on your left, and step away to gain distance...

Fortunately, You didn't have to resort to that, because you weren't carrying, but ALWAYS watch their hands and ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings.

Talk to any Corrections Officer at a County jail or Prison and they'll tell you the inmates practice disarming techniques and teach it to each other.

Stay Safe.

Thanks.
exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

ArmedandDangerous you reacted the same way the vast majority of us would, including myself.

A "Bad Guy" will pick up in a New York second if a person is trying to maintain a buffer zone and will assume they are intimidating the "Good Guy". Who knows what their next move will be.

Cops are trained and retrained on weapon retention and unfortunately cops continue to lose their lives by their own weapons.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.

Thank you.
It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.

I think I may get a partner and a synthetic practice handgun and practice stopping a disarm attempt.

I don't fear the man who practices 1000 techniques one time, I fear the man who practices one technique 1000 times.

 

[fredj338]

Not long ago I had an experience that shook me up a bit. I doubt many people ever think about it, but it happened to me.

I was out at a location I frequent due to my line of work. Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon.

On THAT particular day I did not carry but I usually did and I strongly suspect he noticed it one day and decided to pull that stunt later. Because of his background i suspect he was going to try to steal my weapon. I'm 200 lbs and muscular, and this guy was about 230 and about an inch shorter but built like a bouncer.

Keep in mind that if thugs are looking for a concealed carry person, the4y probably know exactly what to look for. That bulge. The extra long T shirt etc.

It honestly happened so fast it was over by the time I realized what he was doing.

He then laughed it off as if he was just joking, but it was no joke. Had I been carrying an all out fight probably would have ensued.

I never went back to that location afterwards because after that I considered it too risky.

But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.

This changed my concealed carry attitude. Now I never allow anyone close enough to go for my concealed weapon. Keep in mind that because so many people do carry concealed, it might not be too difficult for thugs to profile who might be carrying and try to take your weapon.

Imagine if two guys just face punched you as they walked by and then went for your gun.

I didn't think anything like this could happen to me but I was taken by surprise by the speed of it. My advice is if you are carrying, ALWAYS be aware that criminals are out there who may be looking for someone to hit to get their weapon. If there's two, they can be on your REALLY fast and can attack you before you are even aware it's about to happen.

When I conceal carry now, I'm always vigilant to look at whos nearby and I try to always maintain at least 3 ft distance. Even at 3ft, someone can be on you in less than 1 second. I actually try to keep 6ft but it's more difficult as you get around more people. What would you do if someone went for your gun before you were prepared for the attack?

The damnedest thing would be to get shot by your own weapon.

This was an eye opening event for me and I've learned to always be alert because of it.

Have you ever had anything like this happen to you?

A good argument against open carry. I always try to keep tabs on people near me. In a crowd is the tough one. If you litterally have your head on a swivel you look nervous. It takes a lot of subtle head movements & body positioning to keep track. Crowds are where aiwb makes a bunch of sense.

 

[HardToHandle]

Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes the bug. I focus on just this type of scenario. It is deadly force situation, no doubt.
Right side is a Benchmade Infidel.
Left side is a striking implement.