Carrying W/Empty Chamber

[TwoGunsStanding]

I have found that many autos aren't all that safe with a round in the chamber, but are still fine carry and defense guns. I was going to pose this challenge in the ".25 Auto" thread, but it really deserves its own. I challenge all to comment about the loss of speed from carrying "Condition One" (cocked & locked), and starting with an empty chamber and cocking the slide "on the way up". As far as getting the first round off at close quarters, this method (sometimes called the Israeli technique), works quite well for me, and the faultless safety it provides against accidental discharge (or someone snatching my weapon) sacrifice very little time in a practiced response on the draw. Your experiences or thoughts?

 

[TwoGunsStanding]

I have found that many autos aren't all that safe with a round in the chamber, but are still fine carry and defense guns. I was going to pose this challenge in the ".25 Auto" thread, but it really deserves its own. I challenge all to comment about the loss of speed from carrying "Condition One" (cocked & locked), and starting with an empty chamber and cocking the slide "on the way up". As far as getting the first round off at close quarters, this method (sometimes called the Israeli technique), works quite well for me, and the faultless safety it provides against accidental discharge (or someone snatching my weapon) sacrifice very little time in a practiced response on the draw. Your experiences or thoughts?

 

[Poohgyrr]

My two main concerns are I need two good hands; and some autos with full length guide rods and Novak type sights are hard to cycle when using the corner of a desk/ wall/ my belt or etc...

And I'm not sure any .25 auto is worth having when there are so many good knives around.

 

[Richard Simmons]

Exactly what autos have you found unsafe and what is your criteria for passing that judgement? Most all semiautos that I am aware of are and were designed to be carried with a round in the chamber.

As far as what the difference in speed is between your two conditions just try yours with one hand.

 

[Andy Griffith]

The only guns that should be carried on an empty chamber are:

*Percussion revolvers.
*Single action revolvers with no transfer bar and have a hammer mounted firing pin.

Well made autos shouldn't have to be carried in this manner. If they have to, they aren't well made and should be disposed of or repaired.

 

[Evil One]

Someone attacks you in close quarters, with condition 1 you use your free hand to try and keep the attacker at arms length while you draw and wipe the safety with your other hand.
If you are in condition 3... israeli carry, you are drawing a small, short, and light club.

Condition 1 for me.


Jim

 

[WC145]

If you are carrying a pistol because you feel that you may need to actually use it someday why on earth would you carry it with an empty chamber? Besides, carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber is no different than carrying a revolver with a fully loaded cylinder.

IMO, if you NEED a gun you need it ready NOW and having to take the time to cycle the action to ready your weapon makes no sense. Not to mention, if I have the element of surprise I want to be able to fire my weapon without giving away my presence or position by having to load it first, never mind the possibility of being injured and unable to cycle it.

Remember 3 to 5 - the average gun fight is 3 to 5 rounds in 3 to 5 seconds at 3 to 5 feet. Can you draw your pistol, cycle the action, and put 3 rounds on target in 3 seconds? I'm betting not. However, I KNOW I can draw my gun and put at least 5 rds center mass in 3 seconds at 5 feet.

 

[flop-shank]

Sounds like a great way to get killed. The reason the Israelis used that technique was that they expected to be the ones initiating contact and not responding to a threat like a private citizen or an off duty cop. There is a sizable chance that a person on defense is behind the curve time wise because all predators (as well as Mossad agents

) rely on stealth, distance and timing to launch an attack, and will only do so when all three are in place. You likely will need every split second you have if attacked and having two hands available aren't a given. If you really aren't comfortable with modern autos, which are quite safe, then you might be better served by using revolvers exclusively.

 

[boomstick]

There was a show on the history of transportation, I think it was, on the History Channel or A&E. They did a segment in Detroit about cops on bikes. At one point, they showed a staged sequence of some cops riding up to the "dope house" on bikes, jumping off the bikes and going into the dope house. When one guy jumped off his bike, he pulled his Glock 21 and "racked one into the chamber". I laughed my ass off. I hope the producers told him to do this for the drama as opposed to him doing it on his own for the drama. If he was the former, he should have refused because he certainly wasn't trained that way.

 

[casingpoint]

If you attacker is so close that you don't have time to draw and rack a slide, you probably don't have time left for any type of gun. By then, you must have a fixed blade knife, kuboton, slap, metal flashlight or other hand held instrument at the ready and instantly deployable, or you will be overtaken in what amounts to an unarmed state. Once you stun your attacker with any of these means, you will then be able to pull your semi automatic pistol and rack the slide. You hope.

Inside a certain distance, one has a higher probability of immediately stopping an attacker with any of the instruments described above, especially a knife. So a gun can be in a secondary role to begin with once the distance closes.

 

[stroncl]

I carry with chamber empty.
My reason:
I am new to being a handgun owner and am not yet comfortable enough with my gun to carry loaded (clip is full though). The sigma has no saftey. I agree with everyone about the "uselessness" of carrying without 1 in the chamber.
I am sure as i get more comfortable and confident with it i will... or even better upgrade to an M&P or other semi-auto that has actual saftey so then i would.

Im sure many of you have comments on my preference but hey it is just that... my preference.

 

[BarbC]

None of my carried semi-autos have safeties (KelTec32, KelTecP3AT, Walter PPS 9mm, M&P 9). I always carry with a round in the chamber.

You just have to practice drawing without putting your finger on the trigger until the gun is clear and on target. That's faster than trying to rack a round on the way up.

 

[casingpoint]

Just curious, Barb, who won the popularity contest with you, the M&P9 or the Walther PPS?

 

[BarbC]

I carry almost exclusively IWB. The PPS is so much easier to carry because it's slim and small. The M&P9 is fullsized and while I'll bring it when circumstances dictate, I much prefer the PPS for comfort.

 

[flop-shank]

I will not carry an auto that doesn't have a long reasonably heavy DA only trigger, nor will I tolerate a safety. The only auto I use is a P3AT. I prefer the simplicity, reliability, safety and trigger of a DA revolver. One of my co workers has a S&W auto (I forget which model) that has a long but very light trigger. That gun gives me the creeps. A gun doesn't just have to shoot well, it has to be one that can be lived with year in and year out safely. I think a lot of people like those uberlight triggers because they help them make up for a lack of shooting skill, and they are easier to shoot well, I just think they pose too great a risk of an ND if something like a shirt tail got inside the trigger guard while reholstering. YMMV.

 

[MountainSmith]

Carrying with an empty chamber is a horrible idea. Who is going to be cool enough under pressure to rack the slide and chamber a round without fumbling? What if the round doesn't chamber properly? You can't call time out for technical difficulties. In a pressure situation like that, the simpler the better. I carry an M&P. No safety to fumble, round in the chamber. Operates just like a revolver, point and pull the trigger. Anything else, IMHO, is looking for trouble. Failure is not an option.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
...(sometimes called the Israeli technique)...

I have no idea where you got this idea from but even 40 Years ago the Israeli's I had dealings with all carried in Condition 1 and as they aren't a stupid people I doubt they would have 'changed' this particular "policy" so I'd call this "Gun Rag BS" and nothing but.

I do know that 40 Years ago it was US Military Policy to carry with an empty chamber and I have noted that within the last couple of years that it appears that this "Policy" hasn't changed, at least on US soil. When I was required to go armed while on Duty and in Uniform I did carry my sidearm on my belt in that condition because I knew I might be checked but by that time I had already begun "carry concealed" even while in Uniform and that sidearm was 'cocked and locked' and this idea of carrying an empty gun might have had something to do with my not reenlisting. I walked too many Guard Mounts with empty firearms. Of course, once I became my own boss and during the 13 months in RVN I NEVER "carried" without being 'cocked and locked' - regulations or not - neither did any of the 'people' who worked for me.

So, if you want to call this 'technique' by a particular name you SHOULD call it the "the Stupid US Military Regulation Technique"!!!

If you choose to carry an automatic then get used to it enough before you even begin carrying it; to carry it properly and that is "Cocked & Locked".

...and the faultless safety it provides against accidental discharge...

I've been carrying for over 40 Years and have been "teaching" professional shooting, hunter education, personal defense classes etc. for over 30 and I can tell you more "Accidents" occur during the 'Loading and/or un-Loading' process than at any other time. And, this is totally true especially for the Professionals in both the LE and the Military World.

 

[Forester]

Can open

Worms everywhere!

 

[WC145]

Originally posted by casingpoint:
If you attacker is so close that you don't have time to draw and rack a slide, you probably don't have time left for any type of gun. By then, you must have a fixed blade knife, kuboton, slap, metal flashlight or other hand held instrument at the ready and instantly deployable, or you will be overtaken in what amounts to an unarmed state. Once you stun your attacker with any of these means, you will then be able to pull your semi automatic pistol and rack the slide. You hope.

Inside a certain distance, one has a higher probability of immediately stopping an attacker with any of the instruments described above, especially a knife. So a gun can be in a secondary role to begin with once the distance closes.

I would never choose to go for my knife before my gun. I can draw and fire as fast or faster than I can deploy my knife, ASP, OC spray, or anything else. Like I said, when it's time for a gun it's time for a gun that's ready to shoot and nothing else will do.

 

[WC145]

Originally posted by stroncl:
I carry with chamber empty.
My reason:
I am new to being a handgun owner and am not yet comfortable enough with my gun to carry loaded (clip is full though). The sigma has no saftey. I agree with everyone about the "uselessness" of carrying without 1 in the chamber.
I am sure as i get more comfortable and confident with it i will... or even better upgrade to an M&P or other semi-auto that has actual saftey so then i would.

Im sure many of you have comments on my preference but hey it is just that... my preference.

The most important safety you have, regardless of how the gun is equipped, is the one between your ears. Your gun won't fire unless you pull the trigger, period, keep your finger off of it until it's time to shoot and you have nothing to worry about.
Also - and I mean no offense, I'm just being realistic - if you are not comfortable and confident enough with the weapon to carry it with a round in the chamber then you probably aren't going to have the presence of mind to be able to draw and load it when the sh!t hits the fan. If you are afraid of carrying it loaded the way it was designed to be carried then chances are that you probably shouldn't bother until you are over your fears.