Cast bullets for personal defense?

[Skip Sackett]

The original mold is a 2cav by RCBS. A great design, actually cast about 280gr as a solid from ww alloy. I have mine HP as well, makes 250gr-275gr LSWCHP, depending on the pin installed.

Mine is a two cavity, I think Miha is making them in 4 cavity now. One thing though, I doubt your original is brass.

Ours, Zip's and mine, are. They are a work of art. If you use enough tin to get those super sharp corners to fill out, the bullets are a real beautiful thing. But the mould, man, like I said, works of art.



Shot placement is only accomplished by practice. Not merely target practice but scenario practice. Moving, shooting, cover, support, standing, sitting, kneeling and so on.

The only reason you would ever shoot someone once is because of poor training. 2 to the thorasic, one to the head, assess. Pretty simple and for me, that counts to 3.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Lawyers and bullets...

I actually had to stop and think of what I have in the primary defensive and carry guns; it's all factory. As to what a lawyer might do, well, there are some things a lab rat just won't do! I had to sue my own insurance company several years ago. A guy ran a stop sign and t-boned me right in front of a police officer. Open and shut? Not even close. Try almost 7 years of litigation, during which the doctor and detective my insurance company hired lied about me, and were exposed in court.

As far as bullets go, I have frangeble HP's in one gun, and JHP +P's in two others. The first is a 44spl. Any lawyer, especially in a civil suit, where all that is required is the preponderance of the evidence to find against you, could have a field day with the above. "Sir, why were you carrying high velocity hollow point ammunition in your gun, surely not for target practice?" etc etc. With the hope I will never have to, I could make the case that the LSWC's I had in my gun were indeed, target loads. It is interesting, because only recently I was thinking that my loading skills had come along to the point that I might start carrying roll your (my) owns. For me, it's all in the Lords hands. I prevailed in the litigation above, and when you considder that they lied about me, trailed me for months, put me on trial for being a Viet Nam Vet, riding a motorcycle, being a Christian, etc, etc, I'll just keep trusting Him, they're gonna' do what they do. Flapjack.

 

[Paul5388]

Super lethal rounds may not be that at all, especially if they are factory loads.

Cleveland Williams, who came into the ring weighing 212 pounds, a fraction of that weight a .357 magnum slug still lodged in his body, courtesy of a Texas state trooper who, two years before, had taken umbrage at something the Cat had said and now sat in the audience to root for the man who carried the souvenir of his handiwork.

Surely you remember Cassius Clay vs Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams in 1966?

Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

Come to think of it, they may have not even had jacketed .357 factory loads in 1964.

 

[Jellybean]

Amen, gwalchmai. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. I've worked on cases where super-duper hollow points failed to stop people when they didn't hit in the right place, and I've worked on many DRT cases where FMJ bullets hit the X. There's no magic bullet.

Erich, just where are these "X"s?

 

[Nick B]

Skip is correct.

It was a group buy mold over on the cast boolits forum from Miha of MP molds.

The group buy is over but, someone may restart another run of them eventually.

Just for comparisons sake, here they are with the Lee 452-255-RF.

I'd love one of those in 4 cav casting the RCBS .44 cal 250K . It's a great design but the 2 cav RCBS I have is slow casting .

 

[Nick B]

I cast bullets. I have hollow point versions of a bunch of them. Guess what, if I cast it, I load it in my personal defense loads too.

In the 45ACP, here is what I use:

What do you think about that?

This is a solid clone of an RCBS 45-270SAA and throws a 280gr bullet. It is designed for the 45 Colt and though this picture is of a solid, there are hollow point pins available for this mould. I usually don't carry a 45 Colt for self defense, unless it is while I am hunting with a rifle. Here:

Those puppies loaded to 1000fps or more SURELY they would work for self defense. Even against bears!

Just sayin'

Did you bottom pour those or did you use a ladle ?

 

[John P.]

I think cast bullets are fine in many personal defense situations. I will sometimes carry a 629 Mountain revolver, and I load it with one of the "softer" cast 240 gr. SWC BB bullets that are on the market. I load them to about 1000 FPS.

A while back I came across an interesting old article about the .41 Magnum. The old .41 Magnum Police Load was a mid-range load with a 210 SWC, and it is reported to have had very good results in personal defense situations. If you research some of the one shot stop data, this load is in the 75% or better range; not too bad for a "low-tech" round. I think any .40 or bigger caliber, of at least 200 grains cast with a fairly wide meplat (most SWC designs), and greater than 950 fps will do an adequate personal defense job.

Regards

 

[Erich]

Erich, just where are these "X"s?

Jellybean, in every handgun shooting I've worked on in which a bullet clipped the aorta, heart, brain, or spine (in descending order of frequency of hits in the more-than-200 handgun killings I've done some type of work on), the shootee immediately ceased aggressive action.

That might not always be the case and every shooting is different, but it happens so frequently that I tell my friends to study human anatomy and target the heart/aorta or brain (as opposed to the more nebulous "center of mass" or "thoracic triangle" or whatnot) in the event of need, and to practice in such a way as to be able to hit targets of the right size at defensive differences.

Here's a link to Gray's Anatomy online:

Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body

cheers, erich

 

[I'm3rd]

Go read Jim Cirillo's books. He advocated full WC and SWC for many such uses. I would certainly be comfortable with such.

So would I as long as it's a large caliber soft lead bullet with a flat nose.
Even if a .452" flat point lead slug doesn't expand, and I doubt it would at handgun velocity, it still cuts a 1/2" diameter hole in whatever it passes through including a bad guy's internal organs. I keep my .45acp bedside gun loaded with Speer hollowpoint ammo, but I wouldn't feel helpless before my enemy with a good lead semiwadcutter in the pipe.

 

[Paul5388]

FORT WORTH (AP) — A Tarrant County sheriff's deputy working off-duty as a security officer shot a bank robbery suspect following a chase and confrontation. Authorities say the deputy pursued the man, who left the Fort Worth Community Credit Union about 9:30 a.m. Saturday with an undetermined amount of money. The deputy confronted him in a parking lot. Investigators say the suspect slashed the deputy in the neck as the deputy simultaneously shot the man in the head. The 58-year-old Deputy Fredrick Bauer was treated and released in good condition from a hospital. The man suspected of robbing the bank was in critical condition at another hospital. Another robbery suspect escaped, and the deputy fired a weapon at that suspect's car, breaking out windows.

It's kinda like the Giffords case where head shots aren't necessarily lethal if wonder 9s and other similar weenie guns are employed.

 

[Jellybean]

Thanks Erich, and you are right about every shooting being different too, many people don't think about who is being shot, which makes a big difference.

The combat experts whose experience comes from a competition range think that COM is the best place to aim because that's where their scoring rings are located. COM used to be taught because that gave the most room for error, not because there is anything special there to hit.

 

[fredj338]

Mine is a two cavity, I think Miha is making them in 4 cavity now. One thing though, I doubt your original is brass.

Ours, Zip's and mine, are. They are a work of art. If you use enough tin to get those super sharp corners to fill out, the bullets are a real beautiful thing. But the mould, man, like I said, works of art.

The only reason you would ever shoot someone once is because of poor training. 2 to the thorasic, one to the head, assess. Pretty simple and for me, that counts to 3.

No it's not brass but iron, the Mihec is a copy of the RCBS/Ohaus 270SAA. I really accurate bullet. I have Mihec in 40, really nice molds.
As to the 2 to the body 1 to the head. Nice thought but reallity says you don't train that way for every scenario. First, it's almost impossible to guarantee a hit on a moving head while you are moving also. I know many that throw this concept out there, but few can actually execute it. Try this: a 4" baloon on a 12" string, outdoors, some wind is desireable. Not start @ 7yds & present & move, go for 2+1, let me know how many times you miss that head shot while on the move. A missed shot is a liabilty. Then there is the multiple attacker scenario. Train to deliver 2+1 & the 2nd guy is killing you while you are putting rounds into the first. the 2+1 has a very specific use, it's not good general training principle IMO & that of many other instructors.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Did you bottom pour those or did you use a ladle ?

These were bottom poured BUT from a 10# pot. I have ladled them too. That works good when the mould is a little cold. Like "pressure" casting.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Fred the point was keep shooting until the threat stops.

 

[Jellybean]

It's kinda like the Giffords case where head shots aren't necessarily lethal if wonder 9s and other similar weenie guns are employed.

Paul, caliber has nothing to do with it. There are many places in the head where a bullet will not cause incapacitation. Head shots are risky business in a gunfight because the lethal target area is really small and is easily moved.

 

[I'm3rd]

I agree with you 100%, but I don't trust factory ammo when my life is at stake. I've had rounds not go bang before. Dud primers I guess. BTW that's one of the reasons I like a revolver for SD, if a round doesn't ignite I can pull the trigger and have a fresh round under the hammer.

I guess I *could* buy some factory ammo, pull it down and change the primers out, but then it's a handload.

The small boutique ammo companies only sell max loads for my SD caliber, .41 Magnum. For instance Buffalo Bore has a 265 gr. cast at 1350 fps, a Keith 230 gr. at 1450 fps, and a 170 gr. hollowpoint at 1650 fps. Too much steam for me.

If they made a 210 cast at 950, like the old police load, I'd buy it.

0ver the last 56+ years in which I have owned and fired guns of almost all varieties I have experienced a few, actually very, very few, failures to fire with factory centerfire ammo. A few failures with .22 rimfire, but not many centerfire rounds. Even some of the 1939 vintage 7.35 Italian military ammo I have that's now become too valuable as a collector item to fire still fired like new just a few years ago. On the other hand, I recently experienced quite a few misfires and an occasional hangfire with CCI small pistol primers that I had used to reload some .380 brass. I suppose CCI uses the same primers for it's loaded ammo, but I have never had a misfire with any CCI factory ammo. Go figure.

If recoil of factory .41 mag ammo is a tad too much for comfort maybe you should consider downshifting to a large frame .357 mag revolver for SD purposes. The .357 125 gr hollowpoint round has been at or near the top rank of SD ammo for many years, and even though it's incredibly loud it's recoil isn't as bad as a typical .41 mag revolver of the same size and weight. Of course if you also use the same revolver for hunting game larger and/or tougher than whitetail deer the .357 might not have enough moxie to do the job, but there's no law that says you can't own both. Not yet anyway, but don't count on it staying that way if Whambamyurmama gets another 4 years to appoint ultra-liberal Supreme Court Justices.

 

[I'm3rd]

Super lethal rounds may not be that at all, especially if they are factory loads.






Come to think of it, they may have not even had jacketed .357 factory loads in 1964.

I'm not sure of that either in regard to jacketed HP handgun ammo, but I think I remember (emphasis on THINK) swaged lead HP bullets being available in some popular handgun cartridges even before 1964. S&W's .357 mag revolver went on the market in the late 1930s, and by 1956 when I became old enough (18) to buy one in FL I'm kinda sure but not positive that US ammo manufacturers were offering swaged lead HP bullets in at least a few of the popular revolver cartridges of that day and time, and the .357 mag cartridge was definitely popular with those folks who could afford the guns chambered for it.

Later on I owned several .357 revolvers one gun at a time, but the .357 round was never one of my favorites. Maybe that's because I don't hunt with handguns, it's loud enough to deafen a person for hours when fired in an enclosed space such as a bedroom or hallway, and I always had more than one loaded .45 acp pistol stashed in secured places around our house. That was just in case somebody who I didn't want in the house tried to come in either by stealth or by force. My house is much smaller now that I'm retired, but my .45's bullets aren't.

 

[fredj338]

Fred the point was keep shooting until the threat stops.

I get that, but I hear the 2+1 all the time & I would bet 95% of shooters can not execute it under combat conditions. So shoot until the threat is stops makes waaaay more sense.

 

[GregG]

If recoil of factory .41 mag ammo is a tad too much for comfort maybe you should consider downshifting to a large frame .357 mag revolver for SD purposes.

A Model 57 was my first new handgun. I shot it about twice a week. Ammo was cheap back then. I tried a few boxes of the police loads, but hey were too wimpy, and leaded the barrel.

I normally used the Winchester 210 JHP. Stout load. I fired maybe 2500-3000 rounds though it over the course of several years, and loved every trigger pull.

I have a nice 27-2, but it's too nice to carry. I bought my 58 in well used condition. It's perfect for me. I don't get mad when I scratch it.

I can handle the recoil, I just don't think I need a hog load for up close SD.

 

[Jellybean]

The .41 mag was my favorite duty gun and I usually carried a 3" 657 in a custom made, speed draw holster. My duty load was a 215 gr. SWC cast from wheel weights in a Lyman #410610 mold, over 14.0 grains of Bluedot.