CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[Protected One]

Wrong is wrong no matter who does it. once again, if your not comfortable or competent with a single action pistol cocked and locked, DONT CARRY ONE.

Remember, if you get killed trying to rack the slide, Col. Cooper and I told you so.

+1. If you want to set yourself up to make an "actual" self-defense situation potentialy even worse...hey, it's your life!

 

[Protected One]

Well, Jim, that's a bit longer than I carried mine, but I would have to agree with you and the gist of what Jeff Cooper said - cocked and locked is the safest and most effective way to carry a 1911 if you want to have any chance of coming out of a gunfight alive. I just don't understand how people can think they will necessarily have time, or even a second hand to cycle the slide. The only reason to draw a firearm on someone is if you are in imminent danger of being killed. I've been in a life and death encounter only once, and it made me realize a couple things. One is that some people will try to take your life even if you give them no reason at all to. Secondly, in that situation, milliseconds can make all the difference. People need to learn how to use their weapons if they are going to carry, learn and pay attention to safety rules, and they need to carry a round in the chamber. To me, to do otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the realities of the situation.

More importantly, what if a failure to feed (ftf) or other malfunction occurs while trying to rack that round?
With one in the chamber, the all-important "first round" is always available.

 

[joeykatp]

2 more cents

Love these forums. Can get cantankerous, but still civil. I agree one should carry to one's level of comfort, but recommend one gets comfortable to carry chambered and ready asap. Practice with holster and carry choice, safety on/off, and magazine load should be done with habit.

 

[losingle]

Israelis learned the one hand rack the slide from a jarhead, they have been doing it at least since the 1911 was invented.

 

[dsatchmo]

Chambered round...

If the guy doesnt feel comfortable having a chambered round in his semi-auto, well thats good cause for swapping it out for a revolver as mentioned here. There is no good reason why a competent, well prepared, skilled gun owner should fear having his gun ready to go.
In life there are no second chances, the slide on my glock is harder than many think to singlehand cock...and there is a method to do this correctly provided you dont screw-up and end up the statistic cause of improper technique.
Having said the aformentioned, I would never carry without having my sidearm loaded, chambered and ready...but then again Im at the range 3-4 days a week, spend time with my firearms, and respect the fact that this is a perishible skill unless one keeps sharp and refining his skills.
My Smith and Wesson 586 6" .357 mag.w/hollow-pt. full grain hand loads is a no frills revolverI also have bedside...and will use it if the intruder has done something to piss me off and needs help checking-out with 1 shot.
I think a .38 special would suit your needs fine, get to the range and spend time learning about firearms and the respect we have for them and our 2nd ammendment right to bear them. God Bless the USA...NRA4LIFE.

 

[Pat the Gunsmith]

I tend to refer to those who carry with empty chambers or worse, empty
guns as "cover." Seriously, though, whatever one carries, you must be able to draw and fire with one hand and access it with the weak hand also.

 

[BgDnTx]

If you pull the trigger and there is no bullet in the chamber ... much like a tire with no air in it?

 

[Wingwiper]

I carried a Colt Ser. 70 45ACP for years on duty and it was always cocked and locked. Glad it was one night during a foot chase jumping over backyard fences, when the chasee whirled around and pointed a weapon at me. I was running at the time and fired so quickly I didn't even remember clearing the holster. I never carry empty. But if you feel uncomfortable carrying that way, you gotta do what you're comfortable with.

 

[David Armstrong]

The long-running and often horribly misunderstood C1 vs C3 discussion has come and gone many times on many forums. It boils down to a balance: we are balancing some possible slight delay in presenting the firearm against all the other risk factors. C1 might give some slight advantage in an actual gunfight, C3 gives an increased layer of safety during all those time you are not in a a gunfight.

As with so many things in the gun world, there are advantages and disadvantages to each type of carry. Different people with different equipment in different situations might find that a different solution better addresses their needs. C3/Israeli technique has met those needs for decades, and still does meet them in many situations. More importantly, the different advantages and disadvantages rarely matter in a DGU. The real trick is figuring out what your situation is and what advantages give you the best results. For some that might be C1, for others that might be C3.

BTW, for the speed freaks out there, well-trained C3 shooters are expected to draw, rack, and get a shot off in about 1 second. Lots of experimentation has shown that a good estimate is that it might add .2 seconds to a presentation for the average shooter.

For a good review, check out The Thinking Gunfighter blog article.

 

[kscardsfan]

Speaking from my past, albeit limited, LEO experience; I see no redeeming quality in carrying unloaded ie the "Israeli draw" etc. It's like having a fire extinguisher empty and unpressurized, but with the chemicals and air compressor beside it. Just ain't the logical way to do it.

 

[eddie234]

I always carry mine with a round chambered and safety off both at work and ccw.

 

[poordevil]

I carry in chamber just in cash I am getting my head banged into the concrete with someone sitting on me, I will only need the one hand.

 

[jwk]

Let's start off with the premise that the guy is carrying in a crotch holster. Naw that's a good enough place to end as well.

 

[Road Rat]

I never understand this discussion!

All of my CCW handguns are always loaded. Semiautomatics have a round in the chamber. The 1911 is cocked and locked.
Smith & Wesson and Walther have round in chamber and safety off. They have 10 pounds double-action triggers ...

Revolvers have all chambers loaded

If my life is in danger I am not going to be fumbling around with racking slides; turning off safeties; etc.

 

[Capt.Jim]

For God's sake let it go people...

We all agree, not having one in the pipe is a disadvantage for close quarter self defense situations.
But this doesn't mean the cold carry is a completely useless method so it is better for those who choose this method to leave their guns at home in a locked gun safe or return their CCW.

It is too harsh to say "if you don't do it like I do, don't do it at all..."

Also, I read some of you here trying to convince these people how safe it is to carry a 1911 or an M&P, etc...

I don't think distrust to their gun or its technology is the reason for these gun owners who don't like to carry hot while they still choose to carry on a daily basis.

Could it be because they think they are not immune from making mistakes?

Maybe they believe they are not super human who can never do wrong and a 1/2 second brain fart moment may cause an accidental discharge.
If their way of preventing this possibility is by not carrying hot, more power to them.

And please don't tell me that if all of these people had more training or understanding the mechanics of their guns they will have enough courage to carry hot.

Some may, but some will never do it.

Cold carry option is preferred by those not because the lack of technical knowledge of their gun but probably because of their personality.

Internet is full with ND, AD or UD videos caused by LEO's, soldiers, gun instructors, hunters...
Do you think all these hot carrying people were not aware of the mechanics of their guns?

I trained many soldiers and fought shoulder to shoulder with many of them in the mountains and towns of Iraq as a NATO Navy sniper.

During stressful moments I witnessed some soldiers were running towards the action while some others shaking behind the cover of a wall or a large boulder.
I saw soldiers crying like a little child when we came under fire.
I saw soldiers curled up on the ground like an embryo, shaking and puking when we came under fire.

Remember, these were not civilians on their way to a Starbucks for their daily latte.
These were highly trained soldiers for this kind of situations.
Still, when **it hits the fan, it is a very different world out there.

Maybe you took 2-3 or even 5 different NRA courses.
On top of it probably you watched many self defense DVDs at home.
I am sure you read all books of Massad Ayoob too.
Then probably you go to range every week and shoot hundreds of rounds to a paper target sitting motionless in front of you at few yds away.

Let me tell you a story.
I remember at a rest stop outside of a small deserted Iraqi village, young marines were trying to blow off some steam and 2 marines got into a bet and tried to shoot a chicken in this 50x50 yds enclosed flat dirt backyard while other members of the squad throwing rocks for chicken to move around.

Two young marines scared the **** out of the chicken after emptying their magazines on poor animal while their teammates rolling on the floor laughing.
I guess after missing their first shots they were so embarrassed and stressed which caused them to leave behind a pissed off chicken still walking around without a scratch after 60 rounds.

Moral of the story?
It is a very different thing hitting a moving target compare to placing perfect center of body mass shots to a motionless paper at 5 or 7 yds away.
On top of that if you add the stress, hardship increase x10.

If the stress is because of a life threatening situation, hitting a moving target becomes even 100 times harder.

If you believe anybody takes few courses and goes to range often will be ready almost for any hit-the-fan situation, carry hot or cold you're in for a big surprise!

Of course training helps a lot for you to become competent with your gun. But it does not prepare you for the stress of a life threatening situation.
Especially, if you don't have the right personality, under certain conditions carrying hot may increase your chance to have a ND.

Again, I repeat; I agree in close quarter fighting situations, guys choosing the cold carry method are in a disadvantaged position.

But almost in every other situation their chances are not better or worse than anyone of us.

Still, please let's drop this nonsense of "If you're not carrying like me it's better not to carry at all" attitude towards fellow CCWs!

Imagine this;

An unarmed 18 yr old girl stopped by few thugs at a knife point in a parking lot...
5-6 car length down the row one of these cold carrying CCW sees what's going on...
Gets out of his car, draws his gun, racks it up and yell the guys, "leave her alone, back off !"
BGs with knife turn back and run for their lives.

Would you advise this CCW to leave his gun at home next time, since he wasn't carrying hot?

I mean some of you guys talking like if a BG was already pointing a .45 to your chest you may still have a chance because of carrying one in the pipe.

In a situation like that if you believe you can draw from a concealment and still outgun the BG before he puts one or two holes in your chest cavity.... well you either watching too many Clint Eastwood westerns or more power to you...

I carry mine hot...

But I still respect to those who go thru the process to become a CCW and I thank them for their decision to carry, no matter hot or cold....

Respectfully to all,

 

[Protected One]

For God's sake let it go people...

We all agree, not having one in the pipe is a disadvantage for close quarter self defense situations.
But this doesn't mean the cold carry is a completely useless method so it is better for those who choose this method to leave their guns at home in a locked gun safe or return their CCW.

It is too harsh to say "if you don't do it like I do, don't do it at all..."

Also, I read some of you here trying to convince these people how safe it is to carry a 1911 or an M&P, etc...

I don't think distrust to their gun or its technology is the reason for these gun owners who don't like to carry hot while they still choose to carry on a daily basis.

Could it be because they think they are not immune from making mistakes?

Maybe they believe they are not super human who can never do wrong and a 1/2 second brain fart moment may cause an accidental discharge.
If their way of preventing this possibility is by not carrying hot, more power to them.

And please don't tell me that if all of these people had more training or understanding the mechanics of their guns they will have enough courage to carry hot.

Some may, but some will never do it.

Cold carry option is preferred by those not because the lack of technical knowledge of their gun but probably because of their personality.

Internet is full with ND, AD or UD videos caused by LEO's, soldiers, gun instructors, hunters...
Do you think all these hot carrying people were not aware of the mechanics of their guns?

I trained many soldiers and fought shoulder to shoulder with many of them in the mountains and towns of Iraq as a NATO Navy sniper.

During stressful moments I witnessed some soldiers were running towards the action while some others shaking behind the cover of a wall or a large boulder.
I saw soldiers crying like a little child when we came under fire.
I saw soldiers curled up on the ground like an embryo, shaking and puking when we came under fire.

Remember, these were not civilians on their way to a Starbucks for their daily latte.
These were highly trained soldiers for this kind of situations.
Still, when **it hits the fan, it is a very different world out there.

Maybe you took 2-3 or even 5 different NRA courses.
On top of it probably you watched many self defense DVDs at home.
I am sure you read all books of Massad Ayoob too.
Then probably you go to range every week and shoot hundreds of rounds to a paper target sitting motionless in front of you at few yds away.

Let me tell you a story.
I remember at a rest stop outside of a small deserted Iraqi village, young marines were trying to blow off some steam and 2 marines got into a bet and tried to shoot a chicken in this 50x50 yds enclosed flat dirt backyard while other members of the squad throwing rocks for chicken to move around.

Two young marines scared the **** out of the chicken after emptying their magazines on poor animal while their teammates rolling on the floor laughing.
I guess after missing their first shots they were so embarrassed and stressed which caused them to leave behind a pissed off chicken still walking around without a scratch after being fired 60 rounds.

Moral of the story?
It is a very different thing hitting a moving target compare to placing perfect center of body mass shots to a motionless paper at 5 or 7 yds away.
On top of that if you add the stress, hardship increase x10.

If the stress is because of a life threatening situation, hitting a moving target becomes even 100 times harder.

If you believe anybody takes few courses and goes to range often will be ready almost for any hit-the-fan situation, carry hot or cold you're in for a big surprise!

Of course training helps a lot for you to become competent with your gun. But it does not prepare you for the stress of a life threatening situation.
Especially, if you don't have the right personality, under certain conditions carrying hot may increase your chance to have a ND.

Again, I repeat; I agree in close quarter fighting situations, guys choosing the cold carry method are in a disadvantaged position.

But almost in every other situation their chances are not better or worse than anyone of us.

Still, please let's drop this nonsense of "If you're not carrying like me it's better not to carry at all" attitude towards fellow CCWs!

Imagine this;

An unarmed 18 yr old girl stopped by few thugs at a knife point in a parking lot...
5-6 car length down the row one of these cold carrying CCW sees what's going on...
Gets out of his car, draws his gun, racks it up and yell the guys, "leave her alone, back off !"
BGs with knife turn back and run for their lives.

Would you advise this CCW to leave his gun at home next time, since he wasn't carrying hot?

I mean some of you guys talking like if a BG was already pointing a .45 to your chest you may still have a chance because of carrying one in the pipe.

In a situation like that if you believe you can draw from a concealment and still outgun the BG before he puts one or two holes in your chest cavity.... well you either watching too many Clint Eastwood westerns or more power to you...

I carry mine hot...

But I still respect to those who go thru the process to become a CCW and I thank them for their decision to carry, no matter hot or cold....

Respectfully to all,

While I agree that people - even highly trained people, respond to life threatening situations differently [many Army Rangers "freaked out" in Somalia during the Black Hawk Down incident] I am still an advocate of carrying with a round chambered...but for a different reason than speed of presentation. The concern would be, what do they do if they experience a mechanical problem while trying to chamber the round?

As you said, in a non-close quarters encounter, having to chamber a round is not as big a disadvantage, but most self-defense situations ARE at close quarters.

Finally, I don't think most commenters here are trying to say "carry this way because I do", but rather - If you carry for the purpose of self-defense, this is DEMONSTRABLY the most efficient way to carry.

 

[Protected One]

Semi Auto
Chambered round
Full magazine
Spare magazine

Why is this even being discussed??????

Because people think differently. (I'm with you though)

 

[David Armstrong]

As you said, in a non-close quarters encounter, having to chamber a round is not as big a disadvantage, but most self-defense situations ARE at close quarters.

Finally, I don't think most commenters here are trying to say "carry this way because I do", but rather - If you carry for the purpose of self-defense, this is DEMONSTRABLY the most efficient way to carry.

I think that is the problem...for some the "self defense" concept goes beyond the "I am in a gunfight" limitation and includes a much larger arena. Few folks will be in a gunfight, few of those gunfights will be determined in a fraction of a second. Everyone will be involved in the day to day carry of the gun with all the ancillary administrative handling. One can improve the safety of the administrative handling with a possible slight reduction in gunfight ability. Or one can possibly improve the gunfight ability by reducing the safety of the everyday administrative handing. It's a rational choice, and one that has been made over and over by lots of people and lots of organizations.

We all compromise in this arena. When we choose the type of gun we will carry we are saying "I give up some of X for more of Y". When we pick a holster we decide between OWB and IWB, 3 o'clock carry versus 4:30 carry, pocket carry or waistband carry, and so on. A friend from another forum summed it up well, I thought: "I submit the overall value of C3 carry won't be clear until you widen your frame of reference beyond just gunfights, to include the totality of firearm ownership. If you take your safety and that of your family very seriously, then that safety also depends on the chances of an ND (either by you or other members of your family). C3 is a way to get most of the gunfight utility of a handgun, but a lot less of the ND risk." And that is the best way to think of it, IMO. Think of the totality of firearms ownership instead of just the "OMG I have a BG attacking me from 2 feet aways and he has already grabbed me" that almost never happens and think more along the "I am carrying this thing with me almost all the time almost every day so what compromises give me the best chances for my situation. For some that is a L-frame .357 Magnum revolver in a shoulder holster, for others it is a Bodyguard .380 in a pocket holster. For some that is C1, for others that is C3.

C1 is the new kid on the block and is a better gunfighting carry method. But C3 was the preferred method of carry for quite some time and has a pretty good history of success without all of these problems some suggest. There is a place and a reason for both. The trick is figuring out which is best for you and your particular situation.

 

[adams484]

I gotta feel for the guy with the sore butt in the picture...

I am on the fence with this question. With my DA/SA pistols like the Beretta 92FS and my S&W 645 I feel quite safe with one in the pipe. With my XD however I feel a bit nervous about a shirt tail getting in the holster on a re-holstering. I know... I know... the backstrap safety if you keep your hand off of it and push at the back of the slide instead when holstering it will keep you out of trouble but... And this is rub, I just can't trust a spring loaded firing pin, even with three safeties, just a waiting to slam into the primer if I take a serious fall on my back side drop tests and all.

So for the most part double action gets my first shot off with my DA/SA pistols and if it suffers from a little trigger pull then I call it a warning shot. But the XD I will have to rack it. I am practiced at it and it is a tack-driver so I live with 750 to 1000 millisecond delay because diving for cover is my priority and a moving target is harder to hit.

Although if I were a LEO with an XD or Glock I would rack it before I got out of the car or if I am in an area were I don't feel comfortable I go to level 3 and put one in the pipe and later go back to level 2 when in better surroundings.

Call me paranoid but I read about a cop at a party who's gun went off while dancing and killed a girl he was dancing with. Don't see how that could happen but it supposedly did as it was in the main stream news. Shoulder holster I suppose as she was behind him. That is one reason I have mixed feelings on this but I see both sides of this controversy.

 

[adams484]

Well said... sir.