CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[David Armstrong]

My problem with this statement is that you keep making it and others like it with no supporting documentation.

Care to provide some?

I always have to wonder about background whenever someone asks something like this. Folks, this is part of the problem...way too many people don't know the history and background of things. Not directed at you in particular, Smoke, as it is clear that several here who are commenting have no idea about the training and techniques or history of what they are talking about. But since i really don't feel like plowing through the internet to compile a dozen little quotes for every little thing, I'd suggest you just go and ask any old military guy up through about 1980 how they were trained and instructed to carry. It was C3. Not just the U.S. military, but worldwide. Through the end of the century most European cops carried C3, and many of them still do. Police and military in Russia, South Africa, Brazil, and others either did or still do carry C3. The vaunted British SAS carried their Hi-Powers C3, and C3 was the carry method for GSG9. The IDF, of course, made the method so popular it has become known generically (and incorrectly, IMO) as "The Israeli Method." As recently as 2006 I know the Coast Guard was still using C3 for their handguns.

from Handejector:
But some believe it is safer for my companion, say a nervous old lady, to pull it, rack it in a dark and rainy parking lot, and now be holding a COCKED auto while watching me, a car, and two or three other people?

And yet another example of someone discussing something that they apparently are not very familiar with, as that would not be taught in a good C3 training program. In fact, it would be recommended against such a course of action.

If carrying a DA auto with a round chambered and hammer down, it cannot fire till the trigger is pulled. (I'm not a 1911 guy)

Not necessarily. From Mas Ayoob, Backwoods Home Magazine, 2007: "The first generation Smith & Wesson autoloaders, produced roughly from 1954 to 1980, theoretically can discharge if dropped hard enough with a live round in the chamber, unless the manual safety is engaged. There are several inexpensive pistols such as the Lorcin and the Raven, to name but two, floating around out there that do not have secure firing pin designs and can discharge from impact if struck or dropped. These should NEVER be carried with live rounds in the chamber. If one must use such a pistol, load only the magazine, and rack the slide to bring a cartridge into the chamber only when you perceive an immediate need to actually fire."

 

[David Armstrong]

Your car is your everyday transportation to and from work. Do u keep air in the tires or do u just drive around on flats?

Poor analogy. It goes more along the lines of do you keep your car in C3 - gas in it, tires up, ready to go when you go out and start it up; or do you keep it in C1 - keys in the ignition, motor running.

 

[Smoke]

I always have to wonder about background whenever someone asks something like this.

When I read a statement such as the one above it always appears to me that the person speaking is deflecting attention from the weakness of his argument but questioning the qualifications of the person asking for proof.

Folks, this is part of the problem...way too many people don't know the history and background of things. Not directed at you in particular, Smoke, as it is clear that several here who are commenting have no idea about the training and techniques or history of what they are talking about. But since i really don't feel like plowing through the internet to compile a dozen little quotes for every little thing, I'd suggest you just go and ask any old military guy up through about 1980 how they were trained and instructed to carry. It was C3. Not just the U.S. military, but worldwide. Through the end of the century most European cops carried C3, and many of them still do. Police and military in Russia, South Africa, Brazil, and others either did or still do carry C3. The vaunted British SAS carried their Hi-Powers C3, and C3 was the carry method for GSG9. The IDF, of course, made the method so popular it has become known generically (and incorrectly, IMO) as "The Israeli Method." As recently as 2006 I know the Coast Guard was still using C3 for their handguns.

OK I don’t see that training and doctrine of any military service, presumably in a secure cantonment, during peace time has any bearing on this discussion.

Not speaking for the others I know from personal experience the US Army trains to the lowest common denominator. I can also tell you anecdotally that quite a few military personally do carry a round in the chamber regardless of TRADOC regulations.

 

[David Armstrong]

When I read a statement such as the one above it always appears to me that the person speaking is deflecting attention from the weakness of his argument but questioning the qualifications of the person asking for proof.

I would and do question anyone who wants to talk about how bad C3 or why C3 is used when they apparently are unfamiliar with the most basic history that goes with the technique.It is no different than someone talking about The Modern Technique but then asking who Jeff Cooper was.

OK I don’t see that training and doctrine of any military service, presumably in a secure cantonment, during peace time has any bearing on this discussion.

Then why were you concerned about what organizations have used C3?

Not speaking for the others I know from personal experience the US Army trains to the lowest common denominator. I can also tell you anecdotally that quite a few military personally do carry a round in the chamber regardless of TRADOC regulations.

Which again has no bearing on the issue of organizations that choose/chose C3 as having safety advantages.

 

[handejector]

from Handejector:
But some believe it is safer for my companion, say a nervous old lady, to pull it, rack it in a dark and rainy parking lot, and now be holding a COCKED auto while watching me, a car, and two or three other people?

And yet another example of someone discussing something that they apparently are not very familiar with, as that would not be taught in a good C3 training program. In fact, it would be recommended against such a course of action.

"as that would not be taught in a good C3 training program"
WHAT would not be taught?
A. Having a female companion along?
B. Having an old female companion along?
C. Having a nervous female companion?
D. Pulling her gun?
E. Racking her gun?
F. Being in the dark?
G. Being in the rain?
H. Checking her companion to see if I'm aware of the situation?
I. Keeping an eye on the potential threat(s)?

You talk in wonderfully vague circles.
I'm not really sure what your exact recommendation is anymore, and I don't care enough to read back through the thread.
Would you state your exact recommendation on carry condition so that those of us who have not attained your level of enlightenment can be blessed with your knowledge?
I can't wait to see the light bulb light up.

from Handejector:
If carrying a DA auto with a round chambered and hammer down, it cannot fire till the trigger is pulled. (I'm not a 1911 guy)

Not necessarily. From Mas Ayoob, Backwoods Home Magazine, 2007: "The first generation Smith & Wesson autoloaders, produced roughly from 1954 to 1980, theoretically can discharge if dropped hard enough with a live round in the chamber, unless the manual safety is engaged.

theoretically.....
theoretically
I would agree. It is theoretically possible for any gun with an inertia firing pin to fire if dropped on the muzzle from an appreciable height. That will make a dent in the pavement or the concrete.
I doubt it will happen one in a million tries from waist height, but if I ever carry a 39 or 59 again, I might carry it with the safety on.
If dropped on the hammer or in any position besides muzzle down, I don't believe you could make one fire in a billion tries.

 

[Smoke]

I’m trying to come up with a way to be agreeable here but I honestly believe that if your level of training is such that you aren’t comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber then you need to get some more training.

Every major metropolitan police department in the US carries their firearms with a round in the chamber, they’re walking around the same streets as I am and if they feel that’s the proper way to carry then I think there's something to be said for that. Addidtionally, the company I work for dictates a DA/SA firearm with a round in the chamber at all times while on duty, again I have to believe that they did a risk assessment prior to implenenting that policy.

I also believe that if you aren’t carrying a modern, drop safe, firearm then you should be.

Also to tell me that because Mas Ayoob recommends that Raven/Lorcin/Jimenez shouldn’t be carried with a round in the chamber constitutes proof that major trainer believe Cond 3 carry is acceptable is ridiculous if you’re actually walking around out there with a Jimenez or a Lorcin for concealed carry you really need some more training.

 

[Protected One]

"I'd suggest you just go and ask any old military guy up through about 1980 how they were trained and instructed to carry. It was C3. Not just the U.S. military, but worldwide."

Poor comparrison since I doubt that any military unit is confronted with a surprise, sudden, close quarter self-defense situation. They generally know when danger is immenent, and thus, have plenty of time to chamber a round.
Also, curious as to why you said "through 1980"....did they change the way they trained about that time? If so, any idea as to why?

 

[bluegrassarms]

I always have to wonder about background whenever someone asks something like this. Folks, this is part of the problem...way too many people don't know the history and background of things. Not directed at you in particular, Smoke, as it is clear that several here who are commenting have no idea about the training and techniques or history of what they are talking about. But since i really don't feel like plowing through the internet to compile a dozen little quotes for every little thing, I'd suggest you just go and ask any old military guy up through about 1980 how they were trained and instructed to carry. It was C3. Not just the U.S. military, but worldwide. Through the end of the century most European cops carried C3, and many of them still do. Police and military in Russia, South Africa, Brazil, and others either did or still do carry C3. The vaunted British SAS carried their Hi-Powers C3, and C3 was the carry method for GSG9. The IDF, of course, made the method so popular it has become known generically (and incorrectly, IMO) as "The Israeli Method." As recently as 2006 I know the Coast Guard was still using C3 for their handguns.

Do any of those military entities carry C3 when they are breaching a building or boarding a ship in a real engagement? Do they wait till they are in the camp and see the bad guy and then draw their weapon and chamber it?

Or are we talking about when they are on duty but not actively engaged in a combat situation?

Really good thing about being in the Coast Guard. You really don't have to worry about being mugged on board ship very much.

What we're really talking about is how do you carry when you don't know the risks. The military in most cases, and even the police in many of them, are facing a different risk assessment. LEOs do get attacked but it is very rare compared to the number of civilians who are mugged or attacked, and when on duty often work in environments that are pretty secure. that extra second to rack the slide isn't significant at all there, but it's not the same situation. Also, MOST LEOs in the US, facing a situation far different than the police face in Germany in many ways, do in fact carry C1 when on active duty. What LEOs do in nations that don't have many guns in the general population and don't have massive gang wars going on may not be totally applicable.

of course your own statement suggests those LEOs even in nations that have been legally disarmed are trending to C1 carry. Why are they making that move in light of increased risks, if C3 is so comparable?

What would be far more applicable isn't what the Israeli army or German police do when on duty, it's how those same people choose to carry when in plain clothes going about their off duty day. When they are experiencing the same world as a civilian and present the same target profile.

 

[Protected One]

What would be far more applicable isn't what the Israeli army or German police do when on duty, it's how those same people choose to carry when in plain clothes going about their off duty day. When they are experiencing the same world as a civilian and present the same target profile.

GREAT POINT... and really, the only one that's applicable to the discussion in this thread.

 

[bluegrassarms]

Also, curious as to why you said "through 1980"....did they change the way they trained about that time? If so, any idea as to why?

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the army changing from the 1911 to a double action semi auto in 1985. You know, a gun where you can carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer down and pull the trigger and it goes bang, and can be chambered and mechanically decocked for carry.

 

[jlrhiner]

I'm going to have a serious moment. I promise it won't last long.

If your going to use all that time to train for C3, (and believe me, you will spend some time), why not just go ahead and train for C1? As an old military guy, (prior to 1980), I sometimes carried my 1911 with a round chambered and the hammer on the half-cock notch (C 1 1/2?) because I could deploy the weapon one handed and it was much faster than racking the slide.

I don't usually question someone's experience, as I understand this is an open forum and we get all types. I also understand their are a lot of folks re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, especially when it comes to defensive handgun doctrine. Nothing really new has been added in 50 years or so.

So here I am, mid 50's, fat, bad knees, half deaf and a really poor attitude. But I do have 1 thing going for me, I've been shooting a 1911 for over 40 years and I will make this guarantee, if you want me and have to rack your slide, I will kill you. Simple as that.

Carrying a defensive handgun without a round in the chamber is the stupidest idea out there.

 

[steamloco76]

Carrying a defensive handgun without a round in the chamber is the stupidest idea out there.

I have said the same thing when this discussion came up on other forums. There is no way you are going to have time to draw from concealed carry, rack to chamber then aim if you are confronted with a true life or death moment. Condition 1 for all single action autos. Fully loaded for all revolvers.

 

[Smitty357]

Would it be safer to just carry with only 1 in the mag.

I mean if u have to chamber that 1 round in a time of life and death. In case u lose, the perp wouldnt be taking all ur ammo.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Would it be safer to just carry with only 1 in the mag.

I mean if u have to chamber that 1 round in a time of life and death. In case u lose, the perp wouldnt be taking all ur ammo.

Goes along with my one bullet in the pocket comment.....

 

[David Armstrong]

"as that would not be taught in a good C3 training program"
WHAT would not be taught?

As mentioned, if one would at least TRY to get an understanding of an issue before trying to argue about how bad (or good) it is, or what can be done and what can't, it would help a lot. In the situation you described she would have been taught an alternative to use if she felt uncomfortable with the full draw/rack/hold, most likely a draw to high chest with support hand held to rack. As for the rather silly list, a wee bit of common sense will indicate that most of those have nothing to do with carrying C3, thus are rather irrelevant and really serve no purpose other than to try to be argumentative on a fairly juvenile basis, IMO.

You talk in wonderfully vague circles.

It might seem thta way to those who have no idea what they are talking about. those with a little experience and training in C3 should understand it just fine.

Would you state your exact recommendation on carry condition so that those of us who have not attained your level of enlightenment can be blessed with your knowledge?
I can't wait to see the light bulb light up.

It has been stated several times, sorry that you have apparently missed it. C1 versus C3 as a carry method is an issue of different, not better. There are advantages and disadvantages to both depending on the individual needs, equipment, situation, etc. One should select the method that gives them the greatest advantage with the least disadvantage for their situation, understanding that the difference will rarely matter.

theoretically.....
theoretically
I would agree. It is theoretically possible for any gun with an inertia firing pin to fire if dropped on the muzzle from an appreciable height. That will make a dent in the pavement or the concrete.
I doubt it will happen one in a million tries from waist height, but if I ever carry a 39 or 59 again, I might carry it with the safety on.
If dropped on the hammer or in any position besides muzzle down, I don't believe you could make one fire in a billion tries.

Everything is theoretical until it happens. If you want to argue with Mas go ahead. Personally, I've found him to be rather knowledgeable.

 

[David Armstrong]

I’m trying to come up with a way to be agreeable here but I honestly believe that if your level of training is such that you aren’t comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber then you need to get some more training.

Three things. Yes, it would be nice if everyone who had a gun would take a good training program, but very few actually will do that. Would you want to mandate a minimal training program before a person could purchase a handgun?? Second, of course, we regularly see folks with fairly high levels of training suffering from ADs/NDs, so training really doesn't guarantee safety. And third there are plenty of folks who are perfectly comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber that still choose C3.

Every major metropolitan police department in the US carries their firearms with a round in the chamber, they’re walking around the same streets as I am and if they feel that’s the proper way to carry then I think there's something to be said for that. Additionally, the company I work for dictates a DA/SA firearm with a round in the chamber at all times while on duty, again I have to believe that they did a risk assessment prior to implementing that policy.

And I'll bet that most of those places also dictate snatch-resistant holsters, bullet-resistant vests, carrying a two-way radio, etc. so I'm not sure why that matters. As pointed out there are still plenty of places that mandate C3 as policy.

I also believe that if you aren’t carrying a modern, drop safe, firearm then you should be.

You want to buy a gun for all those folks who have one that doesn't meet your standards? Shall we set a "minimum gun level" for everyone or should we let folks have the freedom to pick what they want? Lots of anti-gun folks out there think that all guns should meet standards they set also and that nobody should have one that doesn't meet those standards. Think they are right??

Also to tell me that because Mas Ayoob recommends that Raven/Lorcin/Jimenez shouldn’t be carried with a round in the chamber constitutes proof that major trainer believe Cond 3 carry is acceptable is ridiculous if you’re actually walking around out there with a Jimenez or a Lorcin for concealed carry you really need some more training.

Again it seems you are a bit of an elitist, arguing that poor people who can't afford a gun you approve of should not be allowed to have guns. Personally I find that line of thought rather disturbing.

 

[David Armstrong]

"I'd suggest you just go and ask any old military guy up through about 1980 how they were trained and instructed to carry. It was C3. Not just the U.S. military, but worldwide."

Poor comparison since I doubt that any military unit is confronted with a surprise, sudden, close quarter self-defense situation. They generally know when danger is immenent, and thus, have plenty of time to chamber a round.

The comparison is fine since he was wanting organizations that did it, and the military did it.

Also, curious as to why you said "through 1980"....did they change the way they trained about that time? If so, any idea as to why?

Two factors. One was training, as the military started using private trainers to a great extent, so the military began to be exposed to things like the Modern Technique. Second was a change in equipment, moving away from SA autos to DA autos.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

please tell us what the advantage of C3 is? There is not a single gun I own that will fire unless the operator fires it. So, how is keeping the chamber empty advantageous?

The Thinking Gunfighter suggests that autoloaders which are literally unsafe with a round in the chamber, unsafe equipment and use, C3 is a safety advantage. Who knows how many years of study were required to arrive at this academic piece of inescapable logic.

And ya know what... after what seems like endless academic baloney about C3, The Thinking Gunfighter concludes with this: From my position, I tend to suggest chamber loaded carry as the normal and standard default position

Some people just like to argue.

 

[David Armstrong]

Do any of those military entities carry C3 when they are breaching a building or boarding a ship in a real engagement? Do they wait till they are in the camp and see the bad guy and then draw their weapon and chamber it?

Or are we talking about when they are on duty but not actively engaged in a combat situation?

Does it matter much? Or do you consider walking around town being "actively engaged in a combat mission?" But to answer the question it was my experience (and admittedly my military training is woefully long ago) that the condition of carry would be dictated based on a number of factors. I do know one of my students came back from Iraq and really griped about how they would patrol an area one day and be directed to have chambers empty, then patrol the same are two days later and be told to chamber a round.

Really good thing about being in the Coast Guard. You really don't have to worry about being mugged on board ship very much.

Yep, probably about as often as you do off the ship.

--snip of a bunch of irrelevant stuff--

What would be far more applicable isn't what the Israeli army or German police do when on duty, it's how those same people choose to carry when in plain clothes going about their off duty day. When they are experiencing the same world as a civilian and present the same target profile.

Well there I have some really bad news for you. IME more officers carry C3 off-duty than on because they get to choose how they carry. A small yet significant percentage of U.S. LEOs carry C3 when on their own time, even when mandated to carry C1 on duty. Why? Because they think it fits their situation better.

 

[David Armstrong]

I'm going to have a serious moment. I promise it won't last long.

If your going to use all that time to train for C3, (and believe me, you will spend some time), why not just go ahead and train for C1?

Lots of folks don't train for either, in which case C3 provides an extra margin of safety for them. Also C3 was designed to bring a person up to a reasonable level of effectiveness FASTER than C1 and is still often used for that purpose.

As an old military guy, (prior to 1980), I sometimes carried my 1911 with a round chambered and the hammer on the half-cock notch (C 1 1/2?) because I could deploy the weapon one handed and it was much faster than racking the slide.

OK, then it seems your answer was to pick a carry method that is pretty much universally decried as both unsafe and slow. If that fit your needs and situation better than others great, that is what worked for you. Others might find the C1 or C3 would work better for them.

But I do have 1 thing going for me, I've been shooting a 1911 for over 40 years and I will make this guarantee, if you want me and have to rack your slide, I will kill you. Simple as that.

I generally tell folks that if your plan of survival is that you will be better than anyone else out there you need a new plan.

Carrying a defensive handgun without a round in the chamber is the stupidest idea out there.

And yet it seems to work rather well on a regular basis. That seems to be the big problem with the "only C1 all the time" camp, they can't explain why C3 has managed to hold its own for so long without any significant problems.