CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[bluegrassarms]

Does it matter much? Or do you consider walking around town being "actively engaged in a combat mission?" But to answer the question it was my experience (and admittedly my military training is woefully long ago) that the condition of carry would be dictated based on a number of factors.

And what would those factors be exactly?

Yep, probably about as often as you do off the ship.

Really? you think the chances of being mugged on a Coast Guard vessel are about the same as off the ship and you have the gall to lecture on statistics? lol.

Again, if we play the numbers then why carry at all? You don't b/c the odds are against ever needing a firearm. but if you do carry you are taking the position that you need to be in a given state of readiness, and the situations one would encounter in that position are almost all situations that will happen extremely fast and without warning. Again, completely unlike most military or even LE situations.

If you are worried about being mugged enough to carry, then the question isn't "well you have little chance of being mugged" but "given that I see the mugging threat as real how should I carry to deal with that situation".

that is completely unlike military carry, which is why your analogy is flawed and non-contributive. The situations for which they carry C3 aren't the same as those anticipated by a civilian carrying concealed, and when they DO anticipate situations that are more similar (high probability of actually using their weapong) they carry C1.

--snip of a bunch of irrelevant stuff--

yes, never miss a chance to be condescending on a message board built on mutual respect.

Well there I have some really bad news for you. IME more officers carry C3 off-duty than on because they get to choose how they carry. A small yet significant percentage of U.S. LEOs carry C3 when on their own time, even when mandated to carry C1 on duty. Why? Because they think it fits their situation better.

not bad news so much as news that doesn't respond to my question or the question at hand really.

So since the vast majority are required to carry C1 it's possible/probable that some few of them carry C3 off duty that somehow supports C3 carry in some way when the vast majority are still choosing C1?

But of course that wasn't my question. My question wasn't what those C1 on-duty people do, read it again. it was what do the C3 on-duty required people do when off duty. You cite situations that aren't applicable to civilian concealed carry, like carrying while in uniform on a naval vessel or on base, but what those guys do when they become civilians and carry is what is applicable.

If even the C3 required guys are carrying C1 in vast majority it tells us something far more useful than just citing that their service manual requires C3. It tells us something b/c they are specifically trained in C3 yet choose C1. Given that C3 is more intensive from a training standpoint in most cases (depends on weapon) what chance does the average accountant or electrician have when a soldier or cop trained in it still thinks it is too cumbersome or slow for concealed carry?

Personally I don't care if anyone carries C3 or whatever, but if you're going to cite cases where C3 makes sense at least site comparable situations to civilian concealed carry.

 

[bluegrassarms]

FWIW I do see one C3 "safety advantage", which is when people put their finger on the trigger when unholstering their weapon. If you do that on a gun with light enough pull you'll scare the bad guy off by shooting your own leg.

The problem being that you've basically accepted one mistake rather than tried to address it. Guns are inherently dangerous and cannnot be made safe. there is no such thing as a safe gun, period. By being C3 you can't ND on a holster pull, great, but once you do holster pull you're now holding an unloaded gun until you do something about it.

The solution to that concern isn't C3 carry IMO, it's stronger trigger pull. Don't carry a semi auto with a 3 lb pull if that's an issue. Carry a SA that is DAO with a good long pull or a revolver with same. that way you still have incredibly low odds of putting a ND in your leg AND when you do get the gun pointed at the bad guy you are holding a loaded gun.

I just don't see any advantage to C3 that can't be overcome with a better solution like changing the weapon or how you wear it. To each his own, I don't tell anyone how they "have to" carry or use a gun other than obeying the safety rules, but that's how I addressed the concerns of carrying a chambered weapon.

 

[bluegrassarms]

As always, training is your friend. If you are afraid of making noise racking the slide it is much like making noise flipping the safety...don't do it until you are in the draw stroke ready to fire.

yes, the best advice for non-professionals concerned about making the BG more aware of his situation is to wait until the last possible second to have the gun where it can be useful in stopping the bad guy. This is ideal for 3am in the dark looking down your stairs or getting into your car in a parking garage.

I recommend thinking really positive thoughts that the gun doesn't fail to load too since you've waited till the last possible second.

I've handled a lot of guns. Few safeties made anywhere near the noise of racking the slide, and if it's a particular concern a little gunsmithing could safely reduce the noise of the safety on many guns. Reducing the slide noise would be much tougher. If it's a concern pick a gun that has a quiet safety and use it, but don't wait till you get down the stairs and see the guy coming at you to get it loaded IMO. The guy you don't see may be really rude and not announce he's about to hit you in the head.

 

[Smitty357]

How many military and LEO's do u see walking around without one in the pipe?

My guess is they have more experience than most civilians. So why do they carry the way they do.

 

[drolen]

How many military and LEO's do u see walking around without one in the pipe?

My guess is they have more experience than most civilians. So why do they carry the way they do.

I spent seven years in the MP Corps and two years in Iraq. Carry status was predicated on the threat. I can tell you that the entire time I was dealing with road duty, which admittedly was only two years, the rule on my CONUS base was empty chamber for all police, both military and DA civilian police.

I can also tell you that the two years I spent in Iraq was the same. Empty chambers while on base, full chambers while off our base in Iraq.

Why did we do that? Once again, the carry status was predicated on the threat.

Debate your opinion of what we did all you like, it's your opinion. However, keep in mind that I was with a group of well informed people that was much larger than the groups that most of you surround yourselves with (except all you LE types) and we made informed decisions based on quantifiable risks. Not once do I remember our decision costing anyone their life. Not once.

 

[venomballistics]

I spent seven years in the MP Corps and two years in Iraq. Carry status was predicated on the threat. I can tell you that the entire time I was dealing with road duty, which admittedly was only two years, the rule on my CONUS base was empty chamber for all police, both military and DA civilian police.

I can also tell you that the two years I spent in Iraq was the same. Empty chambers while on base, full chambers while off our base in Iraq.

Why did we do that? Once again, the carry status was predicated on the threat.

Debate your opinion of what we did all you like, it's your opinion. However, keep in mind that I was with a group of well informed people that was much larger than the groups that most of you surround yourselves with (except all you LE types) and we made informed decisions based on quantifiable risks. Not once do I remember our decision costing anyone their life. Not once.

seems logical enough ....
I stick to C1 largely due to safety in uniformity.
I know my piece is, was and always will be hot, and can count upon it without doubt.

the quantifiable threat portion seems to leave me at drawn or holstered when at Walmart however

 

[handejector]

"as that would not be taught in a good C3 training program"
WHAT would not be taught?

As mentioned, if one would at least TRY to get an understanding of an issue before trying to argue about how bad (or good) it is, or what can be done and what can't, it would help a lot.

Would you state your exact recommendation on carry condition so that those of us who have not attained your level of enlightenment can be blessed with your knowledge?
I can't wait to see the light bulb light up.

It has been stated several times, sorry that you have apparently missed it. C1 versus C3 as a carry method is an issue of different, not better. There are advantages and disadvantages to both depending on the individual needs, equipment, situation, etc. One should select the method that gives them the greatest advantage with the least disadvantage for their situation, understanding that the difference will rarely matter.

If our posts were as important as yours, you might read them and realize that everything you take as argument is not. When I said this three days ago, it was basically agreeing with the idea that it is often a preferential choice:

BTW, for the speed freaks out there, well-trained C3 shooters are expected to draw, rack, and get a shot off in about 1 second. Lots of experimentation has shown that a good estimate is that it might add .2 seconds to a presentation for the average shooter.

True. I've seen it done.
I've also seen times when I wanted a gun in my hand with a round chambered, but did not want other people to know that. I've also seen times when I wanted a gun in my hand with a round chambered and did not want other people to even know I was there, much less my location.
I'm certain the sound of racking would have given up all that info I did not want them to have.

I don't see the need for any argument, though.
Carry it like you want to.
I promise I will.

theoretically.....
theoretically
I would agree. It is theoretically possible for any gun with an inertia firing pin to fire if dropped on the muzzle from an appreciable height. That will make a dent in the pavement or the concrete.
I doubt it will happen one in a million tries from waist height, but if I ever carry a 39 or 59 again, I might carry it with the safety on.
If dropped on the hammer or in any position besides muzzle down, I don't believe you could make one fire in a billion tries.

Everything is theoretical until it happens. If you want to argue with Mas go ahead. Personally, I've found him to be rather knowledgeable.

Again, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking.
Did you see the "I would agree." part above? You even argue with agreement.
_______________________________

Tell ya what, maestro-
Take your condescending enlightenment and bless others with it.
We shall muddle along in our ignorance, blissfully, and soon forget the subtle troll.

 

[Old TexMex]

If our posts were as important as yours, you might read them and realize that everything you take as argument is not. When I said this three days ago, it was basically agreeing with the idea that it is often a preferential choice:






Again, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking.
Did you see the "I would agree." part above? You even argue with agreement.
_______________________________

Tell ya what, maestro-
Take your condescending enlightenment and bless others with it.
We shall muddle along in our ignorance, blissfully, and soon forget the subtle troll.

So you noticed too....

 

[jlrhiner]

Damn! I wanted to know if he practised what he preached. Or what did he actually preach?

i guess he mostly teaches kids. I'm guessing his style wouldn't work well with adults.

 

[O2628]

A holster doing that should've been retired a while ago.
That is the carriers fault, not the guns.

Agreed!!!!!

On a side note .......

Doesn't that wound look funny to anyone else. I admit I was never an Ident (crime scene guy) but I did see my share of gun shot wounds. Maybe this was cleaned somehow by paramedics or medical staff but there is no powder burns or speckling at all. The clothes are not burnt or discoloured at all. The tears are too uniform. Just saying.

 

[Old TexMex]

Found it!

Damn! I wanted to know if he practised what he preached. Or what did he actually preach?

i guess he mostly teaches kids. I'm guessing his style wouldn't work well with adults.

"Don't worry, it's condition 3"

 

[venomballistics]

So you noticed too....

I think he did for a while now.
I coulda clued in Mr Armstrong to his playing with fire ... but ... I just couldn't find that just right wording ... and I ran out of ambition to look for it

 

[K-framer]

I always carry with one in the chamber. IMO, in a SD situation, whether or not one has the time to rack the slide, is somewhat irrelevant. I don't want to be caught out, such that I draw the gun, then know that I have to perform ANOTHER operation on it (beyond just flicking off the safety), before it is ready to fire.

I am not about to lecture anyone else on this. Nor will I engage in argument on the matter. But, to my mind, carrying without one in the pipe is basically the same as carrying unloaded.

 

[cmort666]

Really? you think the chances of being mugged on a Coast Guard vessel are about the same as off the ship and you have the gall to lecture on statistics? lol.

I suspect that there have been more muggings in my old neighborhood of 69th and Indiana Ave. in Chicago in the last two weeks than there have on Coast Guard cutters in the last two decades.

The truth is there have probably been more there in the last year, than on Coast Guard vessels since the days of the "Revenue Cutter Service".

When one has a ridiculous premise, one must inevitably resort to ridiculous "arguments" to support it...

 

[cmort666]

I always carry with one in the chamber. IMO, in a SD situation, whether or not one has the time to rack the slide, is somewhat irrelevant. I don't want to be caught out, such that I draw the gun, then know that I have to perform ANOTHER operation on it (beyond just flicking off the safety), before it is ready to fire.

More to the point, it's hard enough to DRAW while an assailant is trying to choke, beat, stab or shoot you. It ABSOLUTELY escapes me why I'd want to ADD a potential point of failure.

But then I suppose to those who counsel abject submission and trusting in the "better nature" of armed robbers, it's really a moot point. Just give him your money AND your gun and be done with it...

 

[venomballistics]

More to the point, it's hard enough to DRAW while an assailant is trying to choke, beat, stab or shoot you. It ABSOLUTELY escapes me why I'd want to ADD a potential point of failure.

But then I suppose to those who counsel abject submission and trusting in the "better nature" of armed robbers, it's really a moot point. Just give him your money AND your gun and be done with it...

thats really the long and short of it.
add to that you may be wounded by the time you know you need to draw. Perhaps loss of a usable hand to operate the weapon.
In all the scenarios I've managed to think up when contemplating carry condition a few admittedly are better served with C3 .. the vast majority however favor C1 or C2 as one prefers.
ya might need to do it all with one hand.

 

[rwsmith]

Well, it doesn't hurt....

True. And there are many more reasons why we shouldn't carry that way. But we should not have to educate the gun carrying public about this. If they made a conscious well thought decision to carry a gun, they should know this stuff.

It doesn't hurt to let people know that they SHOULD learn this stuff.

 

[Rastoff]

In all the scenarios I've managed to think up when contemplating carry condition a few admittedly are better served with C3...

I've asked this before, but never received an answer. What is a situation where C3 is better?

 

[Bkreutz]

This thread has the most replies of any thread in this section. I think this horse is dead.

 

[Capt.Jim]

I've asked this before, but never received an answer. What is a situation where C3 is better?

This situation : police 1

and this situation : police 2

Just kidding...

Well, here's the serious answer to your question:

I don't think anybody is saying C3 is better. That doesn't make sense.

The reason this thread became controversial and attracted the huge amount of responses is because some people have no flexibility to accept the following...

" C3 also is an acceptable method of carry for a CCW even though it may not be as effective as C1 under certain situations. "

It is as simple as that...

I prefer C1.
But I am not arrogant to tell fellow CCW out there who prefer C3, that they should leave their guns at home or they shouldn't own a gun at all...
Now that would be absurd!