Check my load 38 sp +P

R

RGVshooter

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
1,610
Location
USA
These specs came straight out of "Handloader" magazine. Winter 2017.

In there was an article regarding 38 special, standard & +P loads.

The revolver I will be shooting these out of is a 4" model 686 for general outdoor steel plate plinking up to 25 yards and a few informal bowling pin matches. Specs are as follows:

38 special +P

4.0gr Titegroup

158gr Hornady LSWC/HP

COL 1.433"

Winchester small pistol primer

In the article the writer stated that he got an average velocity of 829 fps out of a Ruger LCR w/a 1.8" barrel. It should be pointed out that the above load produced a greater velocity than most popular commercial +P loads from Winchester & Remington that feature a 158gr LSWC-HP style bullet.

In addition although the load is listed under +P data, it is still under max load to help prevent lead fouling the barrel.

It's interesting because my Hornady 9th edition shows a max of 3.8grs Titegroup with a 158gr LSWC-HP for 357 magnum at a est 850fps and no Titegroup shown in the 38 special data.

What say you?
 
Register to hide this ad
I recall the article, but can't put my hands on it at this moment. I'll grant you, the loads listed in Handloader don't always agree with the loading tables provided by the manufacturers.

I DO happen to have a couple of kegs of Hodgdon TiteGroup on hand, and listed right on the front label is the following in reference to 38 Special: CALIBER 38 Special CHARGE 3.8 gr. BULLET 158 gr. CAST LSWC CASE Win. PRIMER Win. SP C.O.L. 1.475" VELOCITY 920 f.p.s.

There is load information for 9mm Luger, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt on the label as well as the above listing for 38 Special.

At the bottom of the label: MAXIMUM LOADS - DO NOT EXCEED - REDUCE BY 10% TO START

So I guess we can at lease recognize what Hodgdon considers the maximum for TiteGroup. Is it based on any kind of hard SAAMI number? I have no idea.

Best of luck.
 
D Brown said:
I recall the article, but can't put my hands on it at this moment. I'll grant you, the loads listed in Handloader don't always agree with the loading tables provided by the manufacturers.

I DO happen to have a couple of kegs of Hodgdon TiteGroup on hand, and listed right on the front label is the following in reference to 38 Special: CALIBER 38 Special CHARGE 3.8 gr. BULLET 158 gr. CAST LSWC CASE Win. PRIMER Win. SP C.O.L. 1.475" VELOCITY 920 f.p.s.

There is load information for 9mm Luger, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt on the label as well as the above listing for 38 Special.

At the bottom of the label: MAXIMUM LOADS - DO NOT EXCEED - REDUCE BY 10% TO START

So I guess we can at lease recognize what Hodgdon considers the maximum for TiteGroup. Is it based on any kind of hard SAAMI number? I have no idea.

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

I had a bunch of hardcast 158gr SWC and i used that exact recipe. It worked great. it was warm, but not too hot... ;)
 
The Hodgdon website shows max standard pressure load of 3.8gr Titegroup gives a 158gr LSWC 920fps at 15,400 CUP in a 38 SPL case with a 7.7" test barrel. Hodgdon doesn't give +P loads for lead bullets, which bugs me.

As I recall, the max CUP for 38 SPL +P is 18,500 CUP, so I'm quite confident 4.0 gr of Titegroup would be ok, and might hit that 829fps out of a snubbie.

I have to say I didn't know Titegroup could be loaded that aggressively in 38 SPL, and it makes me think a 158gr Rimrock soft LSWC-HP over ~4 - 4.2 gr of Titegroup might be a very good short barrel 38 SPL self defense load that gets dang close to the FBI load.
 
Last edited:
The Hornady bullet is a soft, squishy swagged bullet for target shooting. It is not a Hard Cast bullet.

So thumping them up with a fast powder you will probably get leading. Pressure wise the M686 is fine it is meant for full house 357 mag loads.


But then we can get into the TG debate again.:rolleyes:

Why use expensive Hornady bullets for shooting steel??

JMO but perhaps use 357 brass and a hard cast lead bullet and use start 357 mag loads or just change the bullet if you want to use 38 brass.
 
RGVshooter,

With all due respect to Handloader magazine, Titegroup is not a good choice for .38 Special +P ammo. It's basically in the same burn rate range as Bullseye (another poor +P powder). The problem is, you will reach your maximum +P pressure before you are able to get a good velocity. Better powders are Unique, AA#5, and especially HS-6. Regarding swaged bullets and leading, it's not the softness of the lead that will cause leading (I cast bullets that are just as soft for my FBI load), but rather if they are not a proper size for your throats. Hope that helps.

Don
 
Yes SIZE matters but so does BHN or lead hardness otherwise there would not be all the threads, posts and debates of hard vs soft lead.

Swagged bullets are indeed softer. So use that info however one wants to,

Here on this never ending thread, post #28

If one wants to send a bullet of 5.5-6 bhn down the tube at high velocity then go for it. Maybe they are harder perhaps 8bhn? Maybe they will lead maybe not?Whatever if one wants to splatter steel plates with them so be it.

Anybody know brinell hardness of swaged bullets.....
 
Being a swaged bullet.....

...changes the whole picture. Hornady and Speer's lead bullets are swaged and some other bullet makers supply them swaged also. These bullets are made for target velocities.

Were the bullet hard cast, plated or coated I'd say, "Load 'em up."

Bullseye and Titegroup and capable of making warm loads, but be careful not to overload with a fast powder or your gun will be 'broke'.

There are other much more suitable powders to make a warmer load.
 
Last edited:
USSR said:
RGVshooter,

With all due respect to Handloader magazine, Titegroup is not a good choice for .38 Special +P ammo. It's basically in the same burn rate range as Bullseye (another poor +P powder). The problem is, you will reach your maximum +P pressure before you are able to get a good velocity. Better powders are Unique, AA#5, and especially HS-6. Regarding swaged bullets and leading, it's not the softness of the lead that will cause leading (I cast bullets that are just as soft for my FBI load), but rather if they are not a proper size for your throats. Hope that helps.


Don
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. I went barking up that fast burning powder tree a while back and someone here suggested Universal which I've found to be a great +P powder. Easily push coated 158gr to 1000fps. Very mild shooting. Clean and Accurate too. Get way more velocity and a lot less "bang" than with Titegroup.
 
If I can get my snub nose J frame to push a lead 158gr to 800fps with 4grs of fast powder.........

You should not have any problems with titegroup and your 4" barrel getting a 850 to 900fps load and still reach a safe chamber pressure.

As a note, my 6" 686 shoots little holes in targets with the 158gr Lwc only doing 755fps.
Kills paper but a little light for steel use.

850-900 might be doable for steel but with your weapon you
should be able to get up to 950fps if needed with other powders.
 
Normally I only use titegroup for loading my 148 gr. wadcutters.

For my 158gr 38 special I like using Power Pistol. In fact my favorite 38 special load that I make is:

158gr hornady LRN or SWC-HP
4.9gr Power Pistol
COL 1.455"

For 357 magnum I like using Hornady's 158gr XTP's & 13.9gr H110 @col 1.575"
 
Going to some of my older manuals I found a 38spl+P load that I like most . I use 5.7 grs of Unique w/the " Keith " 173 swc (Lyman 358429) seated on top and crimped in the crimp groove , fired with a small pistol primer .
I realize this is more than modern load manuals show . I fire these in a 357 magnum revolver as I have no designated 38's . This load is very accurate and has plenty of power , cases literally fall out of the cylinder . Regards, Paul
 
My NEI SWC casts a 154gr bullet.On top of 3.8 Titegroup,it'll fly over the screen at a little over 900fps(904 if I remember correctly;excuse me if I don't run out to my shop to retrieve my notes)out of a 6''tube.
When I want to go +P route(which I use in my 4'' model 13),I go the 6.0gr Power Pistol way with the same bullet.Using slower burning powder makes me feel better insured against sudden sharp pressure increase of the quick burning powders.
 
Last edited:
One of my "rules" is I don't pay much attention (none) to load data from any forum expert, range rat, magazine article, gun counter clerk, pet loads web site, or gun shop guru. I still, after 30+ years of reloading, get my data from published reloading manuals. Mostly starting load data and OAL, and use them for reference for max. loads. I do occasionally look at powder manufacturer's websites, but usually double check that data against my manuals. And I ain't missing nuttin'...

The only load data I've considered or used other than reloading manuals is the "NRA M1 Garand load data". Never needed to try a magazine article author's load data...:cool:
 
Went downstairs and excavated the data drawer. SAAMI MAP pressures for .38 Special are:

P: 17,600 cup/17,000 psi +P: 20,0000 cup/ 18,500 psi

Lead (swaged) bullet data is usually mild to minimize the chance of leading.

About powder company data, this is virtually always from specially made test barrels in universal receivers. The barrel creates an absolute worst case in terms of elevating pressures: tight bore and groove dimensions and minimum chambers & headspace. They'll generally hit max pressure for a given charge long before most production firearms. Then, there are the occasional surprises.
 
Last edited:
"FOR STEEL PLATE & PLINKING."

WHY push the envelope??? Surely you could find an acceptable accuracy sweet spot at a lower pressure. NO MAN POINTS for running the hottest loads. Got hot loads? Run them thru a STRONG/less valuable gun. ALSO look at what gun & barrel length they are testing those loads in. A 8" universal receiver is different from an alloy/light wt snub.
 
Last edited:
mikld said:
One of my "rules" is I don't pay much attention (none) to load data from any forum expert, range rat, magazine article, gun counter clerk, pet loads web site, or gun shop guru. I still, after 30+ years of reloading, get my data from published reloading manuals. Mostly starting load data and OAL, and use them for reference for max. loads. I do occasionally look at powder manufacturer's websites, but usually double check that data against my manuals. And I ain't missing nuttin'...

The only load data I've considered or used other than reloading manuals is the "NRA M1 Garand load data". Never needed to try a magazine article author's load data...:cool:
Click to expand...

This is very good advice.

However, there seems to be an adversity to buying paper manuals among many of today's handloaders and they miss out on a lot. Certainly there are websites with data from reputable sources, but these are often sketchy and data is limited.

A variety of published manuals serve as tools for learning to handload as well as comparison and reference. I don't know how new handloaders are educated in procedures these days, but hope it's not on YouTube or other potentially questionable "source". YouTube probably has good information, but it also may contain quite a bit that is not good. It takes some background and experience to differentiate between the good and bad, something a beginner may be incapable of doing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
.38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load
2 3
Replies
48
Views
4K
Rust E. Badge
Rust E. Badge
S
Power Pistol in .38 +P loads...357 Magnum brass, 357 Magnum pistol?
Replies
5
Views
178
Forrest r
F
H
38 Special & Vihtavuori Powder
Replies
10
Views
1K
BrBa
B
P
Home Brew FBI Load Fail
2 3
Replies
40
Views
4K
Lance Boyle
L
C
Velocity differences between revolver barrel lengths 38 special
Replies
19
Views
1K
Yendor357
Y

Latest posts

Back
Top