OP
RGVshooter
Member
The test gun in the article was a Ruger LCR 38 special +P with a 1-7/8" barrel.
Check my load 38 sp +P
- Thread starter RGVshooter
- Start date
The test gun in the article was a Ruger LCR 38 special +P with a 1-7/8" barrel.
A few thoughts on lead bullets.
1) The hardness of the lead needs to be well matched to the pressure of the load. If the lead is too hard to obturate and seal the bore with the pressure available in the load, then you'll get gas cutting as the gas passes by the bullet and that will melt lead which will adhere to the bore.
2) The same gas cutting process occurs if the bullet it undersized relative to the throat. Gas cutting occurs and lead is deposited in the bore before the bullet even reaches the rifling. A lead bullet that is over size for the bore isn't a big deal as it will size down to the required dimensions - just be aware that this can increase the peak pressure of the load
and work up slowly to higher pressures.
3) At the other extreme, if a bullet is too soft for the pressure of the load it can produce leading.
4) Suitable lead bullet hardness for load pressures:
- Plumbers lead (BHN = 5-6), and stick on wheel weights - 13,000 psi (Black Powder Only)
- 1-20 alloy (1 part tin to 20 parts lead) (BHN 10), non magnum handgun loads.
- Clip on wheel weights (BHN = 12-13) 25,000 psi non-magnum handgun loads and rifles to around 1,800 fps
- Lyman # 2 Alloy (BHN = 15) 35,000 psi, magnum handgun loads and rifles to 2,000 fps
- Quench-cast wheel weights and Linotype (BHN = 18) (dropped from mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water) 48,000 psi, Magnum handgun loads and rifles to 2,200 fps.
- Oven heat treated wheel weights (BHN 30-32) 55,000 psi, Jacketed velocities in hand guns and rifles with a quality bore & balanced load. (Note it will take about 3 weeks of aging for the alloy to reach maximum hardness).
5) To find the minimum pressure for an alloy multiply the alloy BHN by 1,400. For example an alloy with a BHN of 12 multiplied by 1,400 = 16,800, so an alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a minimum of 16,800 psi.
6) There are a couple different bullet hardness indexes. The Brinnel hardness is most common but a lot of shooters have Saeco lead hardness testers and they do not use the same scale. For example:
Pure lead = Saeco 1 = BHN 5-6
1-20 alloy = Saeco 6-7 = BHN 10
Linotype = Saeco 9-10 = BHN 18-20
Don't get the two confused when someone references how "hard" their lead is in a load. Details matter.
7) The FBI load.
I probably see more incorrect information on this load than any other. The biggest is that you want to use pure lead for maximum expansion. Yes, that'll do it, except you are way over 13,000 psi even in a .38 special and leading is going to be a major problem. Just ask Federal. Their "FBI load" had major problems and it took then awhile adjusting the load hardness and hollow point cavity dimensions to get a version that would both expand reliably at 4" .38 +P velocities and yet not lead excessively at .38+ P pressures.
Some folks will tell you that leading doesn't matter. They've never shot the FBI's revolver course where it's an issue given the ranges and round counts.
The original FBI load in the early 1970s launched a 158 gr LSWCHP at a nominal velocity of 1010 fps from a 4" barrel.
For comparison purposes the old Remington Express 158 gr LSWCHP load achieved about 900 fps in a 4" barrel, and the current "HTP load" only turns in around 850 fps (but to be fair it will do it from a 2" rather than 4" barrel.
So there's the FBI load and then there's the commercial copies that people call an FBI load but really aren't quite the old FBI load.
That makes the original "FBI load" pretty much a handload proposition. If you're using a .357 Magnum revolver then pressure isn't really an issue and you can use .357 Mag data to get the velocity you need for expansion. The tricky part is the bullet as it needs to be soft enough to expand at a velocity in the 1000 fps range, yet hard enough not to cause excessive leading with the pressures and powders you are using to get 1000 fps.
Plan on some extensive load development and then plan on some gel testing as well to confirm the results.
On the other hand, the current Remington HTP load at around 850 fps seems to do well in gel tests with good expansion and 12" penetration so it begs the question whether you really need to cook up a copy of the original FBI load in the first place.
1) The hardness of the lead needs to be well matched to the pressure of the load. If the lead is too hard to obturate and seal the bore with the pressure available in the load, then you'll get gas cutting as the gas passes by the bullet and that will melt lead which will adhere to the bore.
2) The same gas cutting process occurs if the bullet it undersized relative to the throat. Gas cutting occurs and lead is deposited in the bore before the bullet even reaches the rifling. A lead bullet that is over size for the bore isn't a big deal as it will size down to the required dimensions - just be aware that this can increase the peak pressure of the load
and work up slowly to higher pressures.
3) At the other extreme, if a bullet is too soft for the pressure of the load it can produce leading.
4) Suitable lead bullet hardness for load pressures:
- Plumbers lead (BHN = 5-6), and stick on wheel weights - 13,000 psi (Black Powder Only)
- 1-20 alloy (1 part tin to 20 parts lead) (BHN 10), non magnum handgun loads.
- Clip on wheel weights (BHN = 12-13) 25,000 psi non-magnum handgun loads and rifles to around 1,800 fps
- Lyman # 2 Alloy (BHN = 15) 35,000 psi, magnum handgun loads and rifles to 2,000 fps
- Quench-cast wheel weights and Linotype (BHN = 18) (dropped from mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water) 48,000 psi, Magnum handgun loads and rifles to 2,200 fps.
- Oven heat treated wheel weights (BHN 30-32) 55,000 psi, Jacketed velocities in hand guns and rifles with a quality bore & balanced load. (Note it will take about 3 weeks of aging for the alloy to reach maximum hardness).
5) To find the minimum pressure for an alloy multiply the alloy BHN by 1,400. For example an alloy with a BHN of 12 multiplied by 1,400 = 16,800, so an alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a minimum of 16,800 psi.
6) There are a couple different bullet hardness indexes. The Brinnel hardness is most common but a lot of shooters have Saeco lead hardness testers and they do not use the same scale. For example:
Pure lead = Saeco 1 = BHN 5-6
1-20 alloy = Saeco 6-7 = BHN 10
Linotype = Saeco 9-10 = BHN 18-20
Don't get the two confused when someone references how "hard" their lead is in a load. Details matter.
7) The FBI load.
I probably see more incorrect information on this load than any other. The biggest is that you want to use pure lead for maximum expansion. Yes, that'll do it, except you are way over 13,000 psi even in a .38 special and leading is going to be a major problem. Just ask Federal. Their "FBI load" had major problems and it took then awhile adjusting the load hardness and hollow point cavity dimensions to get a version that would both expand reliably at 4" .38 +P velocities and yet not lead excessively at .38+ P pressures.
Some folks will tell you that leading doesn't matter. They've never shot the FBI's revolver course where it's an issue given the ranges and round counts.
The original FBI load in the early 1970s launched a 158 gr LSWCHP at a nominal velocity of 1010 fps from a 4" barrel.
For comparison purposes the old Remington Express 158 gr LSWCHP load achieved about 900 fps in a 4" barrel, and the current "HTP load" only turns in around 850 fps (but to be fair it will do it from a 2" rather than 4" barrel.
So there's the FBI load and then there's the commercial copies that people call an FBI load but really aren't quite the old FBI load.
That makes the original "FBI load" pretty much a handload proposition. If you're using a .357 Magnum revolver then pressure isn't really an issue and you can use .357 Mag data to get the velocity you need for expansion. The tricky part is the bullet as it needs to be soft enough to expand at a velocity in the 1000 fps range, yet hard enough not to cause excessive leading with the pressures and powders you are using to get 1000 fps.
Plan on some extensive load development and then plan on some gel testing as well to confirm the results.
On the other hand, the current Remington HTP load at around 850 fps seems to do well in gel tests with good expansion and 12" penetration so it begs the question whether you really need to cook up a copy of the original FBI load in the first place.
Last edited:
OP
RGVshooter
Member
Well to make it short, the load in question calls for a Hornady LSWC-HP. As long as I stay within the load parameters of the Hornady 9th edition book that I have, I have seen very minimal leading. Hornady states in their manual to keep velocities under 1100fps to prevent excessive leading of the barrel. This load recipe that I mentioned in my first post the author stated that he got a 5 shot average of 829fps out of a Ruger LCR 38 special with a 1-7/8" barrel. I would assume shooting the same load thru my 4" 686 may produce velocities around 1050fps or so. I haven't shot them yet.But for giggles I might pull out the chromo and check them out.
Handloading makes sense for rifles, it's nearly mandatory for getting the most versatility from handguns.
I load for several handguns, with very little variety in rounds I need to keep dies for. Pretty much same for rifles. I rarely shoot jacketed bullets in any of my handguns, my .380's, (my only centerfire autos), being the exception, as most of the potential from any of my revolvers can be achieved with some version of swaged or lead bullets.
I have a very light weigh .38, M637 that works best with those soft Speer 158gr LSWC HP's over a low end +P level load, the same load seems to work just as good in my new M60/.38 Spcl. They are useless at .357/.44 magnum speeds. I load my M69 up with the Speer's, as they are not a problem with leading at 850fps, accuracy is very good, and the M69 is more shooter friendly. For more serious loads, I use a 240gr LSWC with lots of Herco for not quite 1100fps. If I thought my tired old hide was in danger from bad guys, a case full of 2400 and a 180gr Sierra HP would fix the baddest of guys.
The point being, as a handloader, all of those bullets have a place. One is not better than the others, and all have a best quality that I like and use for my shooting. All of them are accurate in the right application, they can all be useless or sub-optimal in other applications.
cowboy4evr
Member
I have shot 3.7-3.8 grs of Titegroup using speer 158 gr swc lead bullets out of a 4" barrel . I don't know the velocity , but it had plenty of power / accuracy and shot clean . My only complaint about TG , the load is hardly noticeable in a 38 spl case . Regards, Paul
USSR
Member
Perhaps for bowling pin shooting you would want a bit of power but those that shoot revolvers in static steel competitions such as steel challenge use light bullets with a small charge of a fast powder. In my opinion the only advantage of shooting revos in that cof is that you can shoot such light loads not having to cycle a slide.
Obviously for falling steel shooting a bit more fire power is needed but I use just enough to do the job.
Obviously for falling steel shooting a bit more fire power is needed but I use just enough to do the job.
rsrocket1
Member
Isn't a 686 a .357 Magnum gun?
This thing won't even sneeze with this load. You're at 17kpsi and the gun is made for 35kspi along with the brass. Believe it or not most 38 special brass have the same dimensions as .357 mag brass other than the length. Your cylinder is holding the pressure in on the sides and your breechface is holding the rim. If the gun can take it, the brass will take it.
You should be getting around 800 fps out of the gun which will be easy shooting. At 800 fps, the lead bullet can also take it.
This thing won't even sneeze with this load. You're at 17kpsi and the gun is made for 35kspi along with the brass. Believe it or not most 38 special brass have the same dimensions as .357 mag brass other than the length. Your cylinder is holding the pressure in on the sides and your breechface is holding the rim. If the gun can take it, the brass will take it.
You should be getting around 800 fps out of the gun which will be easy shooting. At 800 fps, the lead bullet can also take it.
That is a very good rule....
That's an excellent rule. I adhere to it when using any loads found in books, or the manufacturers website or other reliable source.
Problem is, Everything I shoot isn't in 'published' data. If I get some advice from someone I have to check it against all the other data I can find (thank the Lord for the internet). Sometimes these are found in much older books or reliable sources. Even then I have to approach conservatively and be careful as hell. Gallery and 'Youth' loads for rifles are something that I like. I haven't managed to damage anything in 40 years and I THINK I might have enough data of my own now to cover about any shooting I want to do. I don't go over the top end with any gun, but I have found loads in old data that work well in a 'modern, strong revolver'.
Yeah, this is an old thread, but I thought this info was on a little different tack than most comments here.
One of my "rules" is I don't pay much attention (none) to load data from any forum expert, range rat, magazine article, gun counter clerk, pet loads web site, or gun shop guru. I still, after 30+ years of reloading, get my data from published reloading manuals. Mostly starting load data and OAL, and use them for reference for max. loads. I do occasionally look at powder manufacturer's websites, but usually double check that data against my manuals. And I ain't missing nuttin'...
The only load data I've considered or used other than reloading manuals is the "NRA M1 Garand load data". Never needed to try a magazine article author's load data...
That's an excellent rule. I adhere to it when using any loads found in books, or the manufacturers website or other reliable source.
Problem is, Everything I shoot isn't in 'published' data. If I get some advice from someone I have to check it against all the other data I can find (thank the Lord for the internet). Sometimes these are found in much older books or reliable sources. Even then I have to approach conservatively and be careful as hell. Gallery and 'Youth' loads for rifles are something that I like. I haven't managed to damage anything in 40 years and I THINK I might have enough data of my own now to cover about any shooting I want to do. I don't go over the top end with any gun, but I have found loads in old data that work well in a 'modern, strong revolver'.
Yeah, this is an old thread, but I thought this info was on a little different tack than most comments here.
Bakebfr480
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My 38 spl +P load is Elmer's bullet on top of 13.5 grs of 2400!
jimbo728
Member
On the Hornady 158gr LSWC:
Have shot many thousands of these over the years (Im old).
They have been mostly, and still are loaded with 4.8 of WW 231.
Average velocity has been 840-850fps out of 4" K & L frames.
They shoot well and have been great on pins, plates and bullseye.
Never had a problem with leading in any revolver that load was used in.
They used to have a powdery coating but In the last batch I bought the bullets do not have the powder. The bullet pattern is the same but they are dry. Maybe they changed the formula, I dont know. But they still shoot well.
Just my observation about the Hornady LSWC 158gr bullet.
Jim
Have shot many thousands of these over the years (Im old).
They have been mostly, and still are loaded with 4.8 of WW 231.
Average velocity has been 840-850fps out of 4" K & L frames.
They shoot well and have been great on pins, plates and bullseye.
Never had a problem with leading in any revolver that load was used in.
They used to have a powdery coating but In the last batch I bought the bullets do not have the powder. The bullet pattern is the same but they are dry. Maybe they changed the formula, I dont know. But they still shoot well.
Just my observation about the Hornady LSWC 158gr bullet.
Jim
Yikes!
I hope nobody feeds that to one of their J Frames, as it's only about a half gr less than a hot .357 load.
Don, could you put an ID on those bullets when you get a chance?
They look like winners for sure.
USSR
Member
Bullet on the left is a Lyman 454423 HP clone. Bullet in the middle and on the right are 359640 HP's. All cast from Mihec Molds.
Don
