Checking POA/POI

[KevinCH]

For those of you that check your handguns for POA/POI, how do you do it?

Do you use sandbags, some kind of DIY rest, a commercially available rest, or something else? Do you have any pictures of your set up?

I don't have a private range or gun club anywhere near me that I'm aware of; I can only access to public ranges. Most of those are indoors. I have a couple of guns that just don't seem to shoot to POA for me freehand, & I'd like to bench rest them at a known distance & see if it's me or the sights need drifted or replaced.

Any & all help welcomed & appreciated!

 

[Rpg]

I use 25 lb bags of lead shot and/or shot bags filled with sand.

Nothing fancy enough to warrant having photos.

Your range limitations present some restrictions, but if you can shoot sitting, you're fine.

I've also used no rest but the support a good sitting position offers where shooting from bags is impossible.

 

[arjay]

I used to sandbag the butt of the grip or lean agains a tree while sitting and use my knees to support my arms.Nowadays I just figure my eyesight is buggy.

 

[sipowicz]

One shot, off hand, from my horse....galloping.

 

[H Richard]

Another sandbag user, but I rest only the forward part of the frame (never the barrel) against the bag. You can do it from a standing position, but sitting is much more secure.

 

[venomballistics]

depends on intended use.
if it is to be fired at targets off a rest, then it'll be sighted and checked on a rest.
hunting or defensive ... off hand.
the dynamics change when you can't afford the luxury of pinning it down in a rest.

 

[brucev]

POI relative to POA is critical to getting good on target results regardless of if the target is animate or inanimate. For rifles, I have with success used good quality home-made sandbags. Be aware that consistently placing the rifle on the bags from one shot to the other determines to a large degree how consistent will be the results obtained.

For handguns, I've used sandbags with good success. It is of course necessary that the sandbags used be so sized that one can place the pistol/revolver on the bags consistently. The cover on the bag will need to be able to resist muzzle and cylinder blast when the handgun is fired.

In either case whether firing a rifle or handgun, firing from a good solid rest will allow you to best evaluate the merits of a particular load without the problem of trying to account for flyers caused by flinching, inconsistent position, etc. Of course for firing in field positions one will need to check to see that the POI established at the range coincides with the POA.

Now, the following may sound odd, but it has worked for me. I have used cardboard boxes to zero my handguns. Here is how it works. Take a small cardboard box that when placed under the barrel will elevate the front sight slightly above your target down range. Making a slight groove in the box will help orient the barrel consistently for windage as you make repeat shots. Under the butt of the handgun place a sufficient number of thin pieces of cardboard so as to bring the front sight into alignment with the target. Using the above method I have been able to get very excellent results in terms of sighting in and later shooting my handguns. This past week I was able to find and buy a nice Ruger MK. II competition target model pistol. It came w/ a 4x Burris scope mounted. I used a empty 300 rd. cartridge box as a front rest, resting the front of the barrel on the box about two inches back from the muzzle. That gave me better more consistent results than trying to rest the front of the frame on either the box or a sandbag. At the back I simply rested my hands on the table top and elevated the butt of the pistol as necessary to get everything lined up. Firing from 20 yds., that little pistol consistently shot 10 round strings into slightly over 1/2 inch. Even with reloading and firing a second magazine, the rest used was sufficiently consistent that two 10 round strings went into less than one inch. This I consider remarkable given that I have never fired a scoped pistol and that the groups were fired as the sun had just about gone down.

There are various commercial sources for various designs that allow you to rest a pistol for sighting in a pistol or even carrying out in the field. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.

 

[KevinCH]

One shot, off hand, from my horse....galloping.

I tried that - both left & right handed. Couldn't group. Wrong horse?

 

[KevinCH]

Now, the following may sound odd, but it has worked for me. I have used cardboard boxes to zero my handguns. Here is how it works. Take a small cardboard box that when placed under the barrel will elevate the front sight slightly above your target down range. Making a slight groove in the box will help orient the barrel consistently for windage as you make repeat shots. Under the butt of the handgun place a sufficient number of thin pieces of cardboard so as to bring the front sight into alignment with the target. Using the above method I have been able to get very excellent results in terms of sighting in and later shooting my handguns.

Interesting, because most of what I have read advises not to rest the barrel. Do you think that the relative short length of a handgun barrel (as opposed to that of a hunting rifle) has anything to do with it?

 

[CoMF]

Speaking from the context of defensive and not target shooting, I just use carefully aimed freehand shooting to determine the POA/POI relationship of a particular load.

Proper trigger control keeps the variability to a minimum, though I understand how a proper rest would be essential for precision target shooting.

 

[Mcwsky09]

I have sand bags but generally only use them on outdoor rifle range days.
I have used a soft range bag an an impromptu bench rest.
Would likely use a vice made for the purpose if I had to get truly serious about zeroing a rifle.

 

[4barrel]

I used to sandbag the butt of the grip or lean agains a tree while sitting and use my knees to support my arms.Nowadays I just figure my eyesight is buggy.

Leaning against the tree reminds me of my first 357 with a scope in the 80s. I leaned against a tree to steady & pulled the trigger & blew half the bark in my face. lucky I had on glasses. You have to learn somewhere. I use a HOPPYS leather bench rest setup filled with # 8s with pistol & a LEAD SLED on rifle.

 

[cowart]

For sighting in a handgun, you need to be able to verify *exactly* where the iron sights are pointing. This is difficult to do with ordinary commercial paper targets, because they are mostly designed for use with something other than handgun iron sights that almost cover the exact spot you want to aim at. Scope targets and black bullseye targets are especially bad.

Try this one instead:

 

[brucev]

Interesting, because most of what I have read advises not to rest the barrel. Do you think that the relative short length of a handgun barrel (as opposed to that of a hunting rifle) has anything to do with it?

I've tried a number of different methods of resting rifles and to a lesser extend handguns. With rifles I just about never rest the barrel on the sandbags. I routinely read the front third of the forearm on the front sandbag. With a properly set up rear bag, this arrangement gives me very good results. I had a Ruger No. 1 varmint rifle that tended to string it's shots. I did remove the forearm and shoot it w/ a bare barrel. That allowed me to trouble shoot what was wrong with the bedding of the forearm so that the rifle ended up producing very nice sub-MOA groups.

With revolvers I've had good results with the method described in the prior post. I have rested the dust cover of 1911's on sandbags with good on target results. Compared to what I read in various sources, my results are an anomaly.

 

[KevinCH]

For sighting in a handgun, you need to be able to verify *exactly* where the iron sights are pointing. This is difficult to do with ordinary commercial paper targets, because they are mostly designed for use with something other than handgun iron sights that almost cover the exact spot you want to aim at. Scope targets and black bullseye targets are especially bad.

Try this one instead:

I haven't seen those before, & they make perfect sense! Line up the top edge of the rear sight & top edge of the front sight along the bottom horizontal edge of the upside down "T"; line up the center of the front sight with the center of the vertical member & shoot.

Sadly - everywhere I look on-line it says they are discontinued.

 

[Hapworth]

Off hand, with the ammo I'll be carrying in it, either in single action or staged to single action (if it's a hammerless) to dial as much of me out of the equation and see how the firearm "likes" the ammo.

 

[snowman]

I haven't seen those before, & they make perfect sense! Line up the top edge of the rear sight & top edge of the front sight along the bottom horizontal edge of the upside down "T"; line up the center of the front sight with the center of the vertical member & shoot.

Sadly - everywhere I look on-line it says they are discontinued.

I made a bunch of those myself -didn't even know they were made commercially. The only difference on mine is that the horizontal line is separated into two parts and the vertical line projects downward between them until level with the bottom edge of the horizontal parts. Looks just like your sight picture, only upside down. Just butt the sights up against the bottom plane of the horizontal and vertical portions, and shoot.

Regards,
Andy

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

depends on intended use.
if it is to be fired at targets off a rest, then it'll be sighted and checked on a rest.
hunting or defensive ... off hand.
the dynamics change when you can't afford the luxury of pinning it down in a rest.

This ^^^^^^^^.

When I want to check accuracy, I use a rest. When I want to check POI vis-a-vis POA, I use whatever support the gun will have in "real life."

 

[Airpark]

Another sandbag user/ You can do it from a standing position, but sitting is much more secure.

I reckon as how that takes a pretty tall sandbag.

 

[chief38]

I always sight in my handguns shooting offhand at 50 feet indoors. For some reason when I use to sight in from a sand bag POA/POI was always different than from off hand. I choose 50 feet because that is typically the distance I Target Shoot at.