Coke Grip info needed

'Coke' grips.
Whenever something achieves semi-cult status, lots of misinformation tends to accumulate around it.







Hello Don
I hope my response to these Coke Grips did not sound Mis-informing, as I am only trying to Lean More about these Coke Grips and How they came to be, But let me explain why I feel Albert Gagne was Instrumental in their Birth and design. :) I do Know from Research I have done, That Albert Gagne worked in The S&W Stock room and was also on the S&W revolver shooting team, as well as being Involved with the S&W Design Department while working for S&W. He served his apprenticeship as a Expert Grip maker under His Fathers watchful Eye, so I have wondered if it was Perhaps Albert Gagne who Prompted this Idea when S&W decided to Move out of the Grip adaptor and Magna style grip Era to produce the larger Target grips ? Roper Commented on how his Larger style grip idea when he took It to S&W was quickly shot down, so that makes me wonder what changed The Corporate Minds to finally make them ? Granted it was at least 20 Years after Roper took his Larger Target style grip idea to S&W Before these Coke Profile grips hit the Scene but the fact still remains they did change their minds and Tool up for it, and I suspect Albert Gagne may have been the driving force behind this Idea since his father's grips were heavily sought after by Competition shooters and S&W had Nothing to Offer in a full size target Grip. S&W was not known to waste time and effort on new designs unless they seemed profitable from what I have read. Hopefully, someone may be able to add more to what really Prompted S&W to make these Target grips, and why we did not see any Form of Target grips at S&W Prior to 1952 when they released the First Non-Relieved style Target grips ? We Then saw a change to the slight Palm swell, Oval shape, and Broad checkering, which involved a Lot more machine work and set up, My questions is simply Why and who prompted it ? :) Regards, Hammerdown
 
The first target stock was introduced for the K-frame in 1950 and was advertised as a three-piece stock. It looks like a regular target stock from the side, but has a plastic insert that resembles a grip adapter in the front. Why S&W made these is beyond me, and they did not last long. I have only seen a couple of pairs in the last 40 years.

Who the driver(s) was behind the stock design that collectors refer to as coke bottle stocks may be known, but has never been documented in an article as far as I know. I am sure Roper's design had a strong influence as the stocks look similar to what he marketed.

Bill
 
The first target stock was introduced for the K-frame in 1950 and was advertised as a three-piece stock. It looks like a regular target stock from the side, but has a plastic insert that resembles a grip adapter in the front. Why S&W made these is beyond me, and they did not last long. I have only seen a couple of pairs in the last 40 years.

Who the driver(s) was behind the stock design that collectors refer to as coke bottle stocks may be known, but has never been documented in an article as far as I know. I am sure Roper's design had a strong influence as the stocks look similar to what he marketed.

Bill


Hello Bill
Did those first stock's with the Plastic adaptor last two Years or so ? I have read the Target stocks became a catalog item in 1952, so were these Promoted by Flier or Just word of mouth ? I have found very Little out about Albert Gagne other than what I have all ready shared in my Previous responses of this thread. Do you by chance know when he left S&W , and perhap's what he did after that ? The One Photograph I have seen of him standing with others that were on the S&W revolver shooting Team seems to show him in maybe his late 30's to early 40's age wise. I Just wonder how Long he was employeed by S&W or what he Persued afterwards. It makes no sense to me why he did not try to duplicate his Father's Stocks on his own to Market them, as Hot an item as they were. Regards, Hammerdown
 
Hammerdown...I have an All Model Circular dated November 6, 1950 that lists Target Stocks with Built In Adaptor for $5.50. I know they were also advertised in an earlier circular because the old price of $5.00 is blacked out and $5.50 printed in. By 1952, regular target stocks for K-frames were advertised.

Bill
 
Hammerdown...I have an All Model Circular dated November 6, 1950 that lists Target Stocks with Built In Adaptor for $5.50. I know they were also advertised in an earlier circular because the old price of $5.00 is blacked out and $5.50 printed in. By 1952, regular target stocks for K-frames were advertised.

Bill

Hello Bill
Thanks, I am Learning a lot here, and appreciate it. ;)Regards, Hammerdown
 
From what I have read about the cokes they were installed only on the .44 magnum. Were cokes made at the same time as the "diamond targets" or were the "cokes" the only n frame target stocks available during the period they were made?

It would seem if "cokes" were run up special for the .44 magnum, then they would have been featured in the ads.
 
From what I have read about the cokes they were installed only on the .44 magnum. Were cokes made at the same time as the "diamond targets" or were the "cokes" the only n frame target stocks available during the period they were made?

It would seem if "cokes" were run up special for the .44 magnum, then they would have been featured in the ads.



Cokes were also used on early Model 57's (1964-68).
Cokes were made and used at the same time that std. N frame diamond targets were made and used.
 
From what I have read about the cokes they were installed only on the .44 magnum. Were cokes made at the same time as the "diamond targets" or were the "cokes" the only n frame target stocks available during the period they were made?

It would seem if "cokes" were run up special for the .44 magnum, then they would have been featured in the ads.






Cokes were also used on early Model 57's (1964-68).
Cokes were made and used at the same time that std. N frame diamond targets were made and used.





Hello Hello VM & 9303

From what I have Read and have been told by other's, The Cokes came into play around 1956 and were shipped on the Pre-29's. prior to that they had Non Relieved diamond Target grips but these did not have the Coke Profile, The checkering Panel was flat, & They Lacked the larger coverage of Checkering on them. In the Mid 1960's, The Coke Profile seemed to dissapear, along the broad range of checkering we saw on the Coke Profile grips yet the Oval relief remained the same. VM is correct in tha fact that Cokes came on the Model 57's along with some Pre-27's from the Mid 1950's to the Mid 1960's time span. I have also heard that they could have been Bought as an accessory item from S&W and added to any-N-Sq. Frame revolver, so a factory letter would be the only certain way to know if your revolver came with them. Regards, Hammerdown
 
................... so a factory letter would be the only certain way to know if your revolver came with them. Regards, Hammerdown


Kurt - I don't believe a letter would distinguish between a standard N frame target stock and a "coke" stock from 1956 to 1968 when both were used.

It's my understanding that all 57's and all 44 magnums were installed with cokes from 1956 to 1968.
I've never heard of a pre 27 being shipped with Cokes.
Yes, cokes were an accessory and anybody could buy them and put them on any N frame.
 
Kurt - I don't believe a letter would distinguish between a standard N frame target stock and a "coke" stock from 1956 to 1968 when both were used.

It's my understanding that all 57's and all 44 magnums were installed with cokes from 1956 to 1968.
I've never heard of a pre 27 being shipped with Cokes.
Yes, cokes were an accessory and anybody could buy them and put them on any N frame.







Hello VM
I was not under the Impression they used Both styles during the same time period ? I was told the flat Panel Non Relieved ones were the first ones, Then the Cokes, and finally the flat sided diamond Targets with the football shaped relief. That was just how it was told to me anyway's, and I want to remember I read it in an Older S&WCA Journal where a Member of the association wrote an in depth article on-N-Frame Target grips, But I would have to dig it out to confirm I am right on this. As far as model 57's went, They also could have come with Magna grips, if ordered that way and even some were sent in Cardboard Box's rather than presentation cases I heard later ones were shipped that way as they were not well received and moved slow. My pre-27 is a Three T's revolver and Letters that way with an Original set of Cokes on it. I have had to learn the hard way, Never say Never with anything S&W they sold what the Buyer wanted Regards, Hammerdown
 
Kurt - your factory letter uses the word "coke"?
Would you mind sharing the contents of your letter with us.............black out the tail end of the serial number if you like.
Thanks
 
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Hello VM
I was not under the Impression they used Both styles during the same time period ?


Kurt - if you have Supica's 3rd Edition book, look at the bottom of page 23.
It clearly states that cokes were used '55 to '68
and std. diamond targets were used mid 50's to '67.
 
Anyplace here or elsewhere on the net to get an overview, preferably with photos, of the different styles of grips S&W has used over the years, on which models, etc. You know, sort of a "grip tutorial?"
 
Pick up a copy of SCS&W Volume 3. There is quite a bit of information supplied about S&W stocks on pages 19 through 26. Although many current books refer to them as "grips" and some with "checkering" S&W referred to them as "stocks" and "checking". There is also the use of the terms "crane" and "yoke", but that is a different discussion.
 
yaktamer....Go to page 3 of my Expert Commentary and look at the commentary on "Stocks Used on the 44 Magnum/Model 29". It will give you a good overview of target stocks from the mid-50s to the late 70s.

Bill
 
Oversize Target Stocks

This is a most enjoyable and informative thread that's reminded me of the simple fact that nothing is definate when it comes to S&W. In searching out early S&W 44 Magnums over the years one of the first things I look at in person, at a picture or get a description of over the phone are the stocks. Also, I still prefer the original factory name/description for the wood that came on the early 44 Magnums, "Special Oversize Target Stocks of checked Goncalo Alves with S&W monograms" (All Model Circular from early 1956). Of course it's much trendier to refer to them as "Cokes" due to the contour (now in question thanks to KB's post, thanks Keith!:)), made famous by the Coca Cola bottle of 1915 which introduced the contour bottle shape familiar to all Coca Cola memorabilia collectors. See picture below. It has always amused me that S&W collectors latched on to this iconic bottle shape to describe a key part of another icon, the S&W 44 Magnum. It might come as a surprise though to know that Coke collectors sometimes refer to this particular bottle as the "Mae West" bottle referring of course to another icon of the day, the film star Mae West, famous for her own contours.:)
The .44 Mag target stocks have changed over the course of 50+ years as has everything else. See Bill's excellent EC on stocks for great detail on these changes. For those of you simply looking for some immediate indicators to a particular revolver's age by only looking at the stocks the gun is wearing,(given that the stocks are original to the revolver), here are a few that I've relied on over the years which have been 90%+ reliable when attempting to date the gun in question without a factory letter/ phone call/email to Roy Jinks.
1. Jan-Feb 1956 44 Mags will have target stocks noticeably more narrow at the girth, a more pronounced "ducktail" or flair at the heel of the stocks, and the stocks themselves as KB says above, will be noticeably shorter in length which is a pronounced difference when stood alongside stocks produced just the next month in March and thereafter. The backstrap cutout bottom section is also much shorter. Someone posted a picture of this difference the past year and if I can find it I'll try and repost it. Better yet, the original poster, maybe Bill, can do that for us or KB you can do it with the stocks you have right now if you have the time.:)
2. March-May 1956. Hammerdown has posted a picture in this thread of a set of OTs that have the tell-tale sign of early first 6 month production stocks. On the left panel, notice the pronounced almost double strike line on the lower left quadrant of the escutcheon diamond. When I see this double strike line (as I call it) on any set of OTs fitted to a 44 Mag and they are original to the gun, there's a good chance I'm looking at/having described to me, an early 44 Magnum. I've actually bought 44 Mags sight unseen with this stock characteristic and have not been dissapointed yet when the factory letter arrived.

3. June 1956 -1961-66, the 44 Mag stocks are taller, thicker, not by much, and have lost the pronounced flair. The double line on the diamond is also now gone, and the bottom of the stocks are becoming less oval in shape and beginning to take on a more square appearance common through the 1980s. After 1966-67 however, the OT stocks are the same as for other N frame targets and no longer are exclusive to the 44 Magnum and the Model 57 41 Magnum which wore identical stocks of the Model 29 from 1964 onward.The changes are not immediate and take place over several months and in some cases years. I'm pretty sure factory production techniques, machine change-over, etc., would account for the subtle variations in stocks that fanatics such as me get so wrapped around the axle over.
Another early OT characteristic that has come to light for me the past few years since I've had the great fortune, as have many of you in working with master KB, is the fact that the Goncalo Alves wood graining is actually quite pronounced and stunning. However, the ravages of 50 years takes it's toll on this wood and the beauty of this wood is actually hidden with oil, dirt, wear and tear, which is all ok but not too much. KB, much like a rare art restorer, has brought back to life several pairs of Ot's for me that before he performed his magic were just another pair of "Cokes". While the purist says leave everything alone and don't destroy the character of the original stocks, my simple thought is that KB's restorations not only brings the stocks back to life, but that he preserves that life at the same time. But, to each his own choice in matters like this. For me, if a 71 Hemi Barracuda, a Picasso painting, or S&W revolver is restored by a master and it is presented as such, then it's actually preferable, at least with me. I know this is always a controversial debate item, especially when it concerns gun restoration/value, but this is my opinion and that's all it is so you exciteable types can immediately not think you have a debate here. You don't.:)

Just some thoughts on a relatively crappy day here in NY. Expecting a little snow this afternoon/night. It's that time again already.
Chuck

orig.jpg
 
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Bill,
I seem to remember you saying that the "cokes" were only made for the first two years of production of the 57, which would mean they were dropped in, or at the end of '66, with the next two years being regular diamond targets, until they too were dropped. This was either in a post you made a few months ago about one of your 57's, or while you were giving my wife and I some info at the show in Troy. Am I remembering wrong here?:confused:
 
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I am not sure what I said, but stocks with the larger checked area were probably used through most of 1966. However, I have seen several 29-2s with regular diamond target stocks made of Goncalo alves that were shipped in 1966. Perhaps we need more research in this area. I don't believe anyone has ever studied in depth when the switch from coke bottle stocks to regular diamond targets was made. I know by March of 1967, regular diamond targets were being fitted to 29-2s.

The difficulty in trying to determine what S&W did and when, is that it is all done empirically. You have to find examples to draw conclusions, and they change when new discoveries are made.

Bill
 
I wasn't sure either, so I figured I should ask again, and get re-educated. There are so many variables with Smith, it's almost mind boggling.:confused:

I do know that you know an awful lot about the N frames and what came on them, and there is no better person to ask.
 
Thanks All!

Wow. For me asking a rather simple question that I kind of knew the answer to, this turned out to be a very interesting and informative thread. Thank you all for the great information. I have learned lots.

I got the modified Cokes today and I am very pleased. Who ever cut the full relief in the left panel and refinished them did a excellent job. I don't have a Pre 29 or any other .44 mag that would be correct to put them on but after reading all the posts here I decided to put them on my Model 28-2 with a four inch barrel. The fit and feel is wonderful! I can't wait to shoot the old Highway Patrolman with these stocks on now. This is the first pair of Cokes I have every owned or seen and handled. Will have to look for more. The $80.00 on Ebay for them was well worth it.
 
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