Component price gouging!

[Skip Sackett]

OK, I get it. We are all scared because we have an anti-gun administration in the White House, got it.

I went to the Indianapolis 1500 Gun Show this weekend and about 20 minutes inside the building and I was instantly angry.

OK, I even know how the free market works, got it.

Usually, on one side of the building there is an area where our forum friend, NKJ nut has his tables set up. He had some previous commitments and wasn't able to make it this time. But, as a re-loader/hand-loader, I made it my business to go to that part of the building first to see what was available and maybe score some primers.

Here is what I found. Wolf Small Rifle Primers, in plenteous supply for $30/1000. Now here is what made me a little hot under the collar, just a few weeks ago these exact same primers were selling for $17.90/1000!

I asked if there was any price break for quantity buying, just to see. "Nope", was the answer.

I have enough to ride out this nonsense but really folks. The only reason they can sell them for these prices is because we will (well, some will) pay them! That has to stop!

The part that really got me though was the attitude of the vendor. "Get it while you can" was their attitude. I won't buy from a guy that has that kind of "gouging" mentality.

I know if things are in short supply the price goes higher, got it. I want someone to at least tell me that they hate the prices too!

OK, done venting!

(for now!)

 

[Skip Sackett]

OK, I get it. We are all scared because we have an anti-gun administration in the White House, got it.

I went to the Indianapolis 1500 Gun Show this weekend and about 20 minutes inside the building and I was instantly angry.

OK, I even know how the free market works, got it.

Usually, on one side of the building there is an area where our forum friend, NKJ nut has his tables set up. He had some previous commitments and wasn't able to make it this time. But, as a re-loader/hand-loader, I made it my business to go to that part of the building first to see what was available and maybe score some primers.

Here is what I found. Wolf Small Rifle Primers, in plenteous supply for $30/1000. Now here is what made me a little hot under the collar, just a few weeks ago these exact same primers were selling for $17.90/1000!

I asked if there was any price break for quantity buying, just to see. "Nope", was the answer.

I have enough to ride out this nonsense but really folks. The only reason they can sell them for these prices is because we will (well, some will) pay them! That has to stop!

The part that really got me though was the attitude of the vendor. "Get it while you can" was their attitude. I won't buy from a guy that has that kind of "gouging" mentality.

I know if things are in short supply the price goes higher, got it. I want someone to at least tell me that they hate the prices too!

OK, done venting!

(for now!)

 

[Erich]

Free market, baby.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I did mention that I understood that, didn't I?

 

[Guest]

It seem you just don't understand it(the Free Market System) very well. I do understand that CCI is currently laying folks off because they are not able to get the raw materials. You might want to factor that into the Equation!!!

 

[duckloads]

because they are not able to get the raw materials.

What has happened to the wraw materials?

 

[dennis40x]

I recently sold powder 8 lbs of IMR 4895, 4000 small rifle primers, and 600 Sierra 30 caliber 168gr HBT match bullets. The items sold for what I paid for at the time of purchase several yeas ago. This shortage situation won't last for long. Just remember those vendors that took advantage of the situation and also remember the stupidly of the individuals that bought from those vendors.

 

[DougE]

Originally posted by smith crazy:
I want someone to at least tell me that they hate the prices too!

OK, done venting!

(for now!)

I hate the rising costs of guns, ammo and components. As long as people are willing to pay the inflated prices, they will continue

 

[Skip Sackett]

Originally posted by dennis40x:
Just remember those vendors that took advantage of the situation and also remember the stupidly of the individuals that bought from those vendors.

Dennis,
You are a class individual for selling those components like that. At least in my opinion!

That last part of your post is EXACTLY what I was trying to get folks to get a grip on.

I walked away from that vendor and from now on, I know this doesn't matter to him, I won't buy anything from him.

 

[MrPhil]

How about Winchester primers at $55/1000? Local show this weekend. This guy has alienated a lot of folks. I heard threats against his tires.

I hate this.

 

[Hoptob]

OK, I even know how the free market works, got it.

Skip,

Let me make sure I get it too.

- Folks are low on primers. In the middle of worst economic crisis in 80 yrs, they are auctioning primers for 5-6-7 cents each...
- Dealers' inventories are empty everywhere...
- CCI is laying off workers because they can't get raw materials. What raw materials: brass or detonator? Any explosions in copper mines or chemical plants lately?...

Is that how free market is supposed to work?

C'mon it's not some hi-tech gizmo we're talking about. It's the primers, every country in the world makes them. I don't buy the argument that it's because of panic buying. Whatever we, reloaders, can buy doesn't even scratch the surface of military orders.

Pardon my sarcasm, but whas' up???

Mike

P.S. I'll be putting up on gunbroker couple thousand of once fired primers. No reserve; I'll even pay shippment. Any takers?

 

[Andy Griffith]

Let me tell you how bad it's gotten...

I went into Wal-mart, passed by the sporting goods and went directly to the toy section.

I purchased all the roll caps they had in stock.

I now have the biggest hoard of them that there is!

 

[aphelion]

People are hoarding reloading components in numbers that they'll never use in a 100 years. Same thing happened back in the 90's. One of these days you'll be able to buy them at bargain prices at garage sales.

 

[ehb86]

This whole panic buying of guns and ammo is ridiculous and the people doing the buying are cutting their own throats and temporarily everyone elses.

If you look at commodity prices over the last nine months, copper, lead, etc, they are all in the dumpster. That will eventually make its way back into the ammunition market. People should buy as little as they can get by with over the next few months and wait for prices to reflect the cost of todays materials. The ammo companies are just trying to get rid of all that they manufactured with the commodities that cost them double what they would pay now. Lead one year ago was 1.25 lb. today it is .55. Copper was 4.00 lb., today it is 1.50.

There is no shortage of materials, that is total B.S.

My neighbor said the other day "have you seen Sportsmans Warehouse, they don't have any ammo, its scarce because of Obama" What a load of crap, its scarce because they are practically bankrupt and nobody is putting money into them to keep them supplied.They haven't had any ammo for a year. Buy only what you need to shoot, it will be coming down.

My .02,

 

[geoff40]

The price of raw metals has dropped through the floor. Free markets indeed. Translate it to G R E E D . As long as someone is dumb enough to pay these absurd prices, they won't stop gouging, why would they?
It'll never happen because people are too stupid and impatient, but the best thing right now would be for everyone interested in ammo to stop buying any. Period. Give them a couple of months of that and the price would plummet and it would be everywhere again. Along with components.

 

[ILLWIND]

Yep, I paid 36 bucks for 1000 sm pistol primers. Have you tried to buy an upper for an AR15 lately? Can't be had without paying 20-50% over list.

 

[Revoman]

Originally posted by geoff40:
The price of raw metals has dropped through the floor. Free markets indeed. Translate it to G R E E D . As long as someone is dumb enough to pay these absurd prices, they won't stop gouging, why would they?
It'll never happen because people are too stupid and impatient, but the best thing right now would be for everyone interested in ammo to stop buying any. Period. Give them a couple of months of that and the price would plummet and it would be everywhere again. Along with components.

Goeff40, nicely said the only thing I would change is STUPID and IMPATIENT should be bold and capitilized.

Jay P.

 

[Noah Zark]

Here's the raw material situation:

1 yr lead PRICE:

1 yr lead SUPPLY:

1 yr copper PRICE:

1 yr copper SUPPLY:

1 yr zinc PRICE:

1 yr zinc SUPPLY:

Source: kitcometals.com historical charts at:

http://www.kitcometals.com/cha...zinc_historical.html

I don't really understand the supply issue; raw material stocks are at a one-year high. I don't see the high price of raw materials being an issue either -- prices are at a one-year low. Heck, zinc is at $0.50 a pound and it hasnt been that low in over three years.

IMO, the objective base metals historic price and supply data don't support the high market pricing for ammo. IMO, what is driving ammo prices right now is SOLELY demand.

Geoff40 said it:

Originally posted by geoff40:
. . . As long as someone is dumb enough to pay these absurd prices, they won't stop gouging, why would they? It'll never happen because people are too stupid and impatient, but the best thing right now would be for everyone interested in ammo to stop buying any. Period.

Noah

 

[RidgwayCO]

You may not want to read this, but here goes...

To understand the current component shortage, it helps to look back at the "gas crisis" in the late 1970s. We were told there was a shortage of gasoline, and (in California) went to mandatory gas rationing. The statistics at the end of the "crisis" are illuminating; the exact same amount of gas was sold during the crisis as during a similar time period before the crisis. The only difference was the amount of time it took to sell (a station would sell out of its daily amount of gasoline in four or five hours when it normally took 24 hours to sell). So where was the nation's gasoline supply? Traveling around in people's gas tanks! People who would normally fill up when their fuel level dropped to 1/4 tank or less, were now filling up when their fuel level hit 3/4 of a tank. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or an economist) to see that this individual fear of ever "running out of gas" contributed to the artificial gasoline shortage.

Now let's look at what happens to the market for firearms and accessories (especially reloading supplies) when a Marxist, anti-2nd Amendment politician is elected president, with a Marxist, anti-2nd Amendment House and Senate to rubber stamp his wishes...

And concerning "price gouging", I always use the example of an approaching hurricane when teaching my Econ students. If the price of bottled water and batteries at the supermarket doesn't go up before the hurricane arrives, then there's no reason the earlier consumers won't buy much more than they actually need, leaving less (or none) for those consumers who arrive at the market later. The higher prices enforce "sharing" the temporarily scarce resources. So one person's "price gouging" is another person's "leaving some for the next guy." It all depends on where you're standing.

At least that's the way I see it. But I could be wrong...

PS - Skip, I hate the high prices too...

 

[magnum12pm]

Lots of good analitical thoughts in this thread. It still makes me wonder just how much ammo people who rarely shoot need to stock-pile. I don't think that many regular shooters are doing all this buying. I live in a small town with a walmart store, went by sporting goods yesterday just to check. It looked like the poor farmers pantry, the shelves were bare, not even 22lr. I am going to wait till they have no more room for storage, then buy it from them for half what they payed. Quiet don't tell them it will last forever on the shelf.

 

[vic3620]

I went to the indy 1500 friday night.
found one guy with small pistol primers at 40.00 per thousand. another vendor that I know
told me the vendors bought them all up for themselves before the show opened. including himself.
I left without paying the 40.00 I'll just wait
it out.

 

[m1gunner]

I am out of large pistol primers. In the last 10 years or so the only place I could buy 1000 at a time was a gunshow. No shops in my area sell primers, and shipping and hazmat adds 30 bucks to mailorder prices.

Have recently tried to trade some small primers for large, but got zero response locally on a very active local gunboard.

My response has been to store the guns that need large primers till things change and only shoot 38 and 357s in the interim, no big deal.

Nice thing about revolvers is never having to chase brass. And, for me, the guy that taught me to reload set me up with all the 38 brass I will ever need.

 

[Skip Sackett]

m1,
Would it be possible for you to have several folks order with you? I spoke with Graf's a while back and Widner's too, they will send up to 40,000 primers in one shipment, making it only one hazmat fee. Spread their $20 fee over 40,000 primers and you have an additional cost of only 0.0005 cents per primer.

Of course the cost of those 40,000 primers is going to be hard to come by now!

 

[m1gunner]

SC,

Unfortunately, I am the only reloader in the group I usually shoot with. I was considering ordering some primers and a pound of powder to soften the hazmat somewhat, but no one has any primers at this time.

Like I said, no panic here, but I do miss shooting the 1911.

 

[Superflywimpy]

Ugh! It makes me sick,what these lawmakers are creating. Alot of hysteria. I find myself with my eyes on the ground when I go out shooting looking for brass casings now! With the price of a box of rifle ammo over 20 bucks now. Reload ,reload reload...and reload some more.

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by Superflywimpy:
Ugh! It makes me sick,what these lawmakers are creating. Alot of hysteria.

I'll bite: In what way, shape, manner or form are "these lawmakers" creating hysteria?

The price of metals skyrocketing last year was due to massive purchases by China; that also drove up the oil prices that increased shipping costs.

Tha massive purchases were by gun owners panicked by the correct perception that Obama would be elected, starting in early Fall and spiking after that election.

Let's see: Reduced supply at increased costs combines with a run on the market. Result: Exponential increase in price.

Show me where "these lawmakers" played a role.

 

[Shuz]

Originally posted by Amici:

Originally posted by Superflywimpy:
Ugh! It makes me sick,what these lawmakers are creating. Alot of hysteria.

I'll bite: In what way, shape, manner or form are "these lawmakers" creating hysteria?

The price of metals skyrocketing last year was due to massive purchases by China; that also drove up the oil prices that increased shipping costs.

Tha massive purchases were by gun owners panicked by the correct perception that Obama would be elected, starting in early Fall and spiking after that election.

Let's see: Reduced supply at increased costs combines with a run on the market. Result: Exponential increase in price.

Show me where "these lawmakers" played a role.

By getting elected!

 

[walnutred]

Originally posted by m1gunner:
SC,

Unfortunately, I am the only reloader in the group I usually shoot with. I was considering ordering some primers and a pound of powder to soften the hazmat somewhat, but no one has any primers at this time.

Like I said, no panic here, but I do miss shooting the 1911.

Last October I swallowed hard and placed an order for what to me was a lot of components. 10,000 Wolf small pistol primers and two 8lb kegs of powder (Bulleseye and CPP). Your right about one thing, that's enough powder to last me for years, probably the rest of my shooting life when you consider the 20 or so assorted one-pound cans I have on the shelf. I will probably not buy primers other than shotgun for at least a year, probably two or three.

So all in all I consider the $20 HazMat fee to be minimal. I probably spent that much in gasoline and wear and tear on my truck looking for non-existent primers and powder on the dealers shelves before I placed the order.

I think the primers were in the $18 per 1000 range and the powder in the mid $80's.

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by Shuz:

Originally posted by Amici:

Show me where "these lawmakers" played a role.

By getting elected!

Yeah; that really spiked China's consumption of metals and petroleum...

I think the primers were in the $18 per 1000 range and the powder in the mid $80's.

Heck, I was paying $15.50/brick at the January gun show just five years ago and $19.50/brick three years ago.

I also remember gas for 24.9/gallon. So what? Doesn't fill my tank now.

 

[Skip Sackett]

The point of this thread is to attempt to STOP the panic purchasing, at least by the forum member here!

I'm like walnutred, I'm good for a while. Got in last year before the rush and haven't regretted it once.

I think what Shuz is trying to say is that the fear is generated by the anti-gun stance of the present administration. Something we all can agree on.

What kicks me in the rump is that in order to get elected, they had to get votes from folks that are Pro-Second Amendment. There is no way this country is that far left yet.

To me, folks that vote like that are willing to surrender their freedom for something else, usually money. Sometimes prestige.

I have said this many times, I refuse to be afraid. I am going to take steps to make sure I have what I need when I need what I should have.

Then with courage and tenacity, I am going to attack the problem.

Don't get me wrong or put words in my mouth. I'm not espousing any uprising. I'm just going to exercise my rights while I still can.

When we live in fear we make someone else, most likely not someone that cares about you, your master.

Not on my watch!