Conceal Carry Class denying 2nd Amendment

[BB57]

The class obviously doesn't require a student to handle his gun since they are demanding guns to be left in the car. So what they're really saying is that they don't trust folks to keep their carry guns holstered during class.

Unfortunately, when some guys get around other gun owners they feel compelled to jerk their carry gun out of the holster and wave it around for show and tell. For that reason, it's not a bad policy. Much like some gun shops that have similar policies about loaded guns in the store. It helps keep carry guns where they belong, holstered.

I want to lead with "I completely and totally agree with you".

But I want to comment on the context of your example and make a couple comparisons.

What you are talking about are concealed carry permit holders being responsible enough to recognize the need to leave a loaded gun in a holster until it's needed for an actual defensive shoot.

You're clearly stating something that I suspect nearly all of us will agree with - pulling your loaded concealed carry firearm out for show and tell purposes is irresponsible and just poses unnecessary risks. Same for taking a loaded open carry pistol or revolver out of its holster as well.

Many of us probably recall this particular incident - a good example of an unintentional and accidental discharge - but one that could have been prevented by 1) leaving the Glock in its holster or 2) taking proper care in re-holstering to ensure that nothing finds its way inside the trigger guard.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw[/ame]

Or this one, which illustrates the problems with having live ammo in proximity to guns being sold, or displayed - as well as the larger problems of 1) not personally verifying the loaded/unloaded status of a firearm every time you hand it to someone else, AND receive it from some one else and 2) following the 4 basic rules of gun safety at all times.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUonA66btgI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUonA66btgI[/ame]

Not only did he shoot himself, he fired in the direction of three people to his left.

It's worth noting that in both cases the accidents involved trained police officers who should have known better.

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Now the comparisons....

First, the officers in question were properly trained and should not have made the mistakes that were made. However, based on this, it's reasonable to assume that an instructor, with several classes per year, each with 10 or so students per class most of whom have less training than the above officers, would quite likely encounter a student who does something equally stupid. The fact that we don't hear more stories about students shooting themselves or others in classes is a tribute to the effectiveness of the practice of isolating guns and ammo in classroom sessions. It's not a "2A" issue, it's a "some people do stupid things" issue.

Second, most of is here would express concern about potentially loaded firearms being handled and pointed in public, non-range, non-hunting settings. You know, places like Chipolte, where the 2A demonstrators and the loaded status of their firearms are total unknowns.

My suspicion is that both issues stem from the same 2A rights over common sense argument posed by people who probably have not looked at the issues in the bigger picture with an eye to real world experiences and consequences.

Regardless of philosophical or political leanings, let's all focus on being safe out there.

 

[NYlakesider]

Well in the People's Republic of NY where I live and years back was a NRA certified pistol instructor that used to teach the pre issue class to get a CCW that would not be any sort of problem. FWIW so you understand NYS you have to get a CCW to even own/possesses/acquire a hand gun, that includes in your house. Any person taking the course could not legally own a handgun, nor in most cases legally even touch one.

Now when I took my Utah and Florida CCW class a few years ago it was held in a meeting room in a large motel and the subject of carrying there was never broached. There was no shooting required for this course.

Yes I was carrying and my motto is its concealed well and you should not see it PERIOD! Instructor(off duty LEO) never asked or said no guns in class. He brought a few to demonstrate different actions types and no we could not touch any of his guns due to a strict reading of our states ridiculous gun laws! (PS this was pre Safe Act) FWIW If the instructor had put down in his paperwork or said when I talked with him on the phone to register for the class NO GUNS, I would have left it in my car.

 

[Jeffkframe]

This might be a bad analogy. ..... every gun show I have gone to requires that all guns must be unloaded and haven't seen anyone complain about that practice. I don't see how the instructor of the Utah class is doing anything different. Just my two cents.

 

[MOONDAWG]

I have no problem with "The Second Golden Rule"...

"He who has the gold, makes the rules"

If one doesn't wanna abide by them, one should take his toys and go home.

 

[Rastoff]

Not only did he shoot himself, he fired in the direction of three people to his left.

Just to be picky, there are four people to the policeman's left.

...every gun show I have gone to requires that all guns must be unloaded and haven't seen anyone complain about that practice.

You haven't seen enough people. Plenty complain about it.

 

[XD40inTX]

In Texas, the law says that when a CHL holder has any official contact with a LEO (e.g., a traffic stop) the LEO has the right to disarm the CHL holder of he feels it's necessary. If he does so, he isn't "depriving the CHL holder of his 2A rights." He's merely guaranteeing his safety and the safety of others.

Same situation.

 

[cyphertext]

I agree... any class I teach where guns will be handled are my guns for demonstration only. All other guns and ammo are to stay in your vehicle until we go to the range. If you can not live with that rule, please do not attend my course.

I haven't had a boy scout disagree with me yet.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Every Glock armorer's course I have attended has been filled with LE officers, yet the rules are NO GUNS.

It is just too easy for someone to forget that he is in a training environment.

While Gunsite allows, or did in the past, all students to wear their firearms at all times, the rules strictly prohibited removal from the holster at any location except on the line.

I do not see it as a denial of the second amendment as described, but a recognition of the fact that the students are in "train/learn" mode, and it is just too easy to "demonstrate" something during a break or whenever, and the results could be disastrous.

Just my thoughts.

 

[BB57]

In Texas, the law says that when a CHL holder has any official contact with a LEO (e.g., a traffic stop) the LEO has the right to disarm the CHL holder of he feels it's necessary. If he does so, he isn't "depriving the CHL holder of his 2A rights." He's merely guaranteeing his safety and the safety of others.

Same situation.

It's a bad analogy.

In a classroom it makes perfect sense not to allow the combination students, firearms and ammunition from a safety perspective for all of the reasons outlined in previous posts.

That's not quite the case in a traffic stop. The only officers I've encountered who routinely disarm concealed carry permit holders are those who are either inexperienced with concealed carry stops, are a little on the dim side, and/or who have overinflated egos and like to power trip.

The reality is that if someone has a valid permit, they are well vetted and are much less likely than the average person to pose a threat to you as an officer, especially when they have just disclosed their carry status.

If you decide you want to disarm them, you're faced with a couple of options that are both problematic. If you have the individual hand you the firearm while they remain in the vehicle, they are going to be digging around to remove a loaded weapon from their holster, with all the attendant risks handling a firearm in a tight space entails as they get it out and hand it to you, possibly unintentionally sweeping you in the process. Plus, unless you plan on holding a gun on them (which you have no justification to do, and would just escalate the tension for the driver, making mistakes even more likely), the driver will have a distinct advantage with gun in hand in the unlikely event they are a criminal trying to avoid capture and decide to shoot.

The other alternative involves having them get out of the vehicle to either hand you the weapon, or to assume the position while you remove the weapon. This again entails risks to both parties that is just not warranted in a traffic stop.

My normal response to notification of concealed carry was to tell the driver that as long as he leaves his gun in his holster, I'll leave my gun in my holster, and then ask the driver to leave both hands on the wheel, particularly when I am approaching or at the vehicle.

Just because the law allows an LEO to secure a concealed carry firearm, does not mean it's always or even infrequently a good idea.