Concealed legality details

[pantannojack]

In recently attending a CWL class in Idaho, the instructor suggested that when carrying in pocket, IWB, shoulder, or other and it becomes visible accidently, or an outer garment "prints" the weapon, I could be charged with BRANDISHING in Washington or Idaho State. Is this true? That sounds like denial of right to me. What do the lawyers say?

 

[Telecaster]

You'd have to read Idaho law to know for sure, he should have provided you a copy of the statues.

In Florida, that wouldn't be illegal. Accidental brief exposure is legal, and brandishing usually involves you holding the gun in your hands. Printing isn't illegal here. YMMV.

 

[Heinz]

I am not in Idaho and do not know the law there. In South Carolina, prior to open carry, "Brandishing" required the intent to display the firearm. You could "brandish" it in a holster if you intentionally pulled back you kjacket and flashed it. If the wind blows your jacket open, it is not intentional brandishing.

 

[Lightfoot4]

... and it becomes visible accidently, or an outer garment "prints" the weapon, I could be charged with BRANDISHING in Washington or Idaho State.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've NEVER seen brandishing applied to accidental exposure. Brandishing has to have intent.

... In South Carolina ... If the wind blows your jacket open, it is not intentional brandishing.

A friend of mine, from North Carolina, was riding a bicycle in the Myrtle Beach area when the wind blew his shirt up, exposing his otherwise concealed firearm. A cop saw it and he was arrested for open carry. Took some money and lawyering to get the charges dismissed. But he didn't get charged with brandishing.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Sounds like you need legal advice from an attorney in the states that concern your question.

 

[Eric300]

BRANDISH(ING)

To wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"

I would have to disagree with your instructor. Accidental/Unintentional exposure is not 'Brandishing'.

 

[Muss Muggins]

In recently attending a CWL class in Idaho, the instructor suggested that when carrying in pocket, IWB, shoulder, or other and it becomes visible accidently, or an outer garment "prints" the weapon, I could be charged with BRANDISHING in Washington or Idaho State. Is this true? That sounds like denial of right to me. What do the lawyers say?

Since open carry appears to be legal without a permit in both Idaho and Washington state (admitted five minute interweb search), I call that which makes the grass green and fragrant . . .

 

[RetCapt]

This is in response to Lowa's post, as well as a general response on the topic.

In Calif, pursuant to PC 417 et seq, the circumstances described by OP would not be a crime. The various states may differ, and I don't know the law in ID.

Lowa's response regarding LE, at least in Calif, which he did not choose to exclude, is not correct. That may be due to good faith ignorance or as a part of his narrative as indicated in his last sentence. I think in his first sentence he is trying to state the LEOs do not understand laws, but the sentence is so poorly worded that even that is not completely clear.

I am not an attorney. But I have taken law classes, including at the FBI National Academy. For over 30 years I taught law in LE academies (recruit and in-service) and community colleges. Students/recruits have to pass a state test in each block to survive to graduate. Fail a test and there is one make up. Fail that and you go home. I have been on POST committees that review the legal curriculum and the tests. These tests are not easy. These tests and academy policies (which are mandated by Ca POST) apply to all peace officers throughout the state, including 'back woods' cops, who do indeed care, and for very good reason. Iowa's condescending opinion towards LEOs is factually inaccurate and obviously biased.

The comment on "illegitimate government" is irrelevant and political. LE agencies, and their LEOs work for the government the voters elected. That government may be objectionable to many of us in many of their actions but they are the result of voter preference. They can be voted out, or in some cases recalled, by the voters. But unless or until that happens they are legitimate. Any other alternative would be anarchy.

Having stated my thoughts I now look to Iowa to suggest how to bring all LEOs up to an academic level acceptable to him and how to move our government from illegitimacy to legitimacy. I also look for what actions he personally intends to take to attain these objectives beyond sending out clumsily worded cheap shots.

 

[BB57]

I'm not a lawyer, but I've NEVER seen brandishing applied to accidental exposure. Brandishing has to have intent.



A friend of mine, from North Carolina, was riding a bicycle in the Myrtle Beach area when the wind blew his shirt up, exposing his otherwise concealed firearm. A cop saw it and he was arrested for open carry. Took some money and lawyering to get the charges dismissed. But he didn't get charged with brandishing.

When did this happen? NC is an open carry without a permit state and has been for years.

Now…there are prohibited areas like paid events and parades but just riding your bike isn’t one of them.

I suspect your friend is greatly exaggerating or more likely, there is more to the story, such as carrying a handgun under the influence of alcohol.

 

[BB57]

I’ve heard variations on the “brandishing a firearm” hysteria for the entire 36 years I’ve carried a concealed handgun.

I’ve never heard of anyone ever getting arrested for an accidental exposure.

Unfortunately it goes hyperbolic with people claiming that “printing” will get you arrested for “brandishing”. Again, I’ve never heard a credible account of that happening.

The fact is unless it’s distinctly printing through skin tight spandex, no one is going to notice, unless you’re doing stupid like repeatedly pawing at your clothing, pull in your shirt down etc.

People new to concealed carry are easy to spot in most parking lots. They get out of their truck, they look down and adjust their shirt and then check and adjust 2-3 more times on their way to the store. Dudes who have been doing it 20 years no longer even think about the gun being there.

 

[Autonomous]

You need to read and comprehend the laws pertaining to you.
Even when 100% legal, overzealous cops or politics can still ruin your life.

A guy I know was violently assaulted by cops when his shirt blew up his back, briefly exposing his weapon, when riding a bicycle. He has a CWP and open carry is legal here. It didn't matter.

 

[Muss Muggins]

A guy I know was violently assaulted by cops when his shirt blew up his back, briefly exposing his weapon, when riding a bicycle. He has a CWP and open carry is legal here. It didn't matter.

If a story sounds way too weird to be true, it’s probably not. There’s always more to the story . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

Police do not know it understand laws. They don't have law degrees. If their boss tells them that that is brandishing, they will arrest you and charge you. If they are back woods cops, they won't care one way or another. . .

Your misunderstanding of police training and education regarding the law is frightening. . .

 

[CH4]

Police do not know it understand laws. They don't have law degrees. If their boss tells them that that is brandishing, they will arrest you and charge you. If they are back woods cops, they won't care one way or another.

No gun law is actually legal. It really comes down to how that particular illegitimate government feels.

?????????????????????????????????

I am not a lawyer, but I am certain that brandishing, burglary and sniffing glue are illegal in all states.

I don't know about Idaho, but I highly doubt it. By that instructor's definition, everyone who OCs is brandishing. In CA and probably most other jurisdictions, brandishing means to "draw or exhibit the weapon in a threatening manner, or to use it in a fight, other than in self-defense." 417 CPC.

 

[Catwrangler]

When did this happen? NC is an open carry without a permit state and has been for years.

Now…there are prohibited areas like paid events and parades but just riding your bike isn’t one of them.

I suspect your friend is greatly exaggerating or more likely, there is more to the story, such as carrying a handgun under the influence of alcohol.

Um, NC. has attacked S.C. and annexed N. Myrtle Beach and Myrtle Beach? How far inland does this land seize go? Are McColl, Rockhill and Chesney under NC control too?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Um, NC. has attacked S.C. and annexed N. Myrtle Beach and Myrtle Beach? How far inland does this land seize go? Are McColl, Rockhill and Chesney under NC control too?

Open carry is legal in SC with a NC concealed carry permit . . .

 

[14daMoney]

did I enter an Allstate commercial - - - "Silence...."

This is in response to Lowa's post, as well as a general response on the topic.

In Calif, pursuant to PC 417 et seq, the circumstances described by OP would not be a crime. The various states may differ, and I don't know the law in ID.

Lowa's response regarding LE, at least in Calif, which he did not choose to exclude, is not correct. That may be due to good faith ignorance or as a part of his narrative as indicated in his last sentence. I think in his first sentence he is trying to state the LEOs do not understand laws, but the sentence is so poorly worded that even that is not completely clear.

I am not an attorney. But I have taken law classes, including at the FBI National Academy. For over 30 years I taught law in LE academies (recruit and in-service) and community colleges. Students/recruits have to pass a state test in each block to survive to graduate. Fail a test and there is one make up. Fail that and you go home. I have been on POST committees that review the legal curriculum and the tests. These tests are not easy. These tests and academy policies (which are mandated by Ca POST) apply to all peace officers throughout the state, including 'back woods' cops, who do indeed care, and for very good reason. Iowa's condescending opinion towards LEOs is factually inaccurate and obviously biased.

The comment on "illegitimate government" is irrelevant and political. LE agencies, and their LEOs work for the government the voters elected. That government may be objectionable to many of us in many of their actions but they are the result of voter preference. They can be voted out, or in some cases recalled, by the voters. But unless or until that happens they are legitimate. Any other alternative would be anarchy.

Having stated my thoughts I now look to Iowa to suggest how to bring all LEOs up to an academic level acceptable to him and how to move our government from illegitimacy to legitimacy. I also look for what actions he personally intends to take to attain these objectives beyond sending out clumsily worded cheap shots.

 

[Smoke]

I Have To Ask This Question

If you don't know what the law is in the state where the OP is at what possible good does it do to comment on the law where you're at? which has zero bearing on the question being asked.

 

[BB57]

Um, NC. has attacked S.C. and annexed N. Myrtle Beach and Myrtle Beach? How far inland does this land seize go? Are McColl, Rockhill and Chesney under NC control too?

Sorry. Reading comprehension error. Probably induced by working on airplanes for several hours at 98 degrees F and 70% humidity, on an asphalt ramp hot enough to melt my shoes.

I do however reserve the right to blame SC for the heat this week.


Ahhhem….but that said….

I’ve had an NC concealed carry permit for over 10 years now and it has always been honored in SC. *AND* open carry is legal in SC for SC residents with a concealed carry permit, *AND* for non residents with a concealed carry permit honored by SC.

So again my question is “when did this allegedly happen”.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I Have To Ask This Question

If you don't know what the law is in the state where the OP is at what possible good does it do to comment on the law where you're at? which has zero bearing on the question being asked.

That issue crosses all forum posts.

As an example: “I bought a Glock . . . “

Responses: “I have a goat farm . . . “

 

[Kanewpadle]

Revised Code of Washington is where you need to look.
RCW 9.41.270: Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm—Unlawful carrying or handling—Penalty—Exceptions.

By definition of this section, you “should” be okay. If you run across a snowflake, who knows? Personally I don’t worry about it and I don’t care if someone has a hissy fit. I have pocket carried for years without a problem. And the snowflakes around here wouldn’t know any better anyway. If someone is aware that your gun prints, he or she is probably a gun person.

Carry legally and don’t worry about it.

 

[Autonomous]

If a story sounds way too weird to be true, it’s probably not. There’s always more to the story . . .

60 something year old guy pulled over by cops when he rode into the Best Western we were staying at. They cover him and make him wait on the bicycle for backup. Several cops then, without warning, tackle him off the bike.
I know the guy and know the witnesses.

As far as more to the story... Take your accusation and put it somewhere.

P.S. The treacherous are always suspicious.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Was he drunk? Did he commit a traffic violation? Did he fail to stop when the overheads got lit? Did he take off running when he stopped? Had there been a crime committed by a person on a bicycle nearby? You apparently weren’t there. I’m not accusing anyone of anything, but I, and you, weren’t there, so we don’t know the whole story. What I do know is that cops are too busy to screw with people lawfully carrying a firearm without a valid reason. Your buddy did something else. If he didn’t, I’m assuming he settled the lawsuit prior to trial . . .

60 something year old guy pulled over by cops when he rode into the Best Western we were staying at. They cover him and make him wait on the bicycle for backup. Several cops then, without warning, tackle him off the bike.
I know the guy and know the witnesses.

As far as more to the story... Take your accusation and put it somewhere.

P.S. The treacherous are always suspicious.

 

[Heinz]

Smoke, the basic principals of the English common law apply across most states. Therefore it is a valid observation to state "brandishing is an intentional act and in my state that requires you intend to branish"

However I did not bother to look up the Idaho code to see if they had some unusual definition of "brandishing or bizarre case law on deep concealment.
I thought maybe the OP could show some initiative.

I practiced criminal law for 10 years in Ohio. But the law in Ohio has changed. Any good lawyer will include a caution that your jurisdiction may vary, but that does not make an explanation of the general state of the law worthless. Except to you

 

[filipows]

Idaho statute, brandishing

I'm not a lawyer but the statute says

18-3303. EXHIBITION OR USE OF DEADLY WEAPON. Every person who, not in necessary self-defense, in the presence of two (2) or more persons, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon in a rude, angry and threatening manner, or who, in any manner, unlawfully uses the same, in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.





.In recently attending a CWL class in Idaho, the instructor suggested that when carrying in pocket, IWB, shoulder, or other and it becomes visible accidently, or an outer garment "prints" the weapon, I could be charged with BRANDISHING in Washington or Idaho State. Is this true? That sounds like denial of right to me. What do the lawyers say?

 

[steelslaver]

Search Idaho 18-3302 and read the actual laws on FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS

While you could be possibly be charged with brandishing, you could also possibly be charged with reckless driving for being 6" from the center or fog line. But, how likely that is to occur and the chances of conviction or for that mater much of a legal battle would be slim. Most cops don't want to waste time making mountains out of mole hills,especially imaginary mole hills. Now if a person made some exaggerated claims as to what you did your problems may be larger.

Having been in Idaho a bit, most of the people are not apt to be very excitable about guns. I am am not sure about the Boise area though. It may well have more gun paranoia than the rest of the state.

Montana code


45-3-111. Openly carrying weapon -- display. (1) Any person who is not otherwise prohibited from doing so by federal or state law may openly carry a weapon and may communicate to another person the fact that the person has a weapon.

(2) If a person reasonably believes that the person or another person is threatened with bodily harm, the person may warn or threaten the use of force, including deadly force, against the aggressor, including drawing or presenting a weapon.

 

[Muss Muggins]

P.S. The treacherous are always suspicious.

Ronald Reagan: Trust, but verify . . .

 

[Autonomous]

Was he drunk? Did he commit a traffic violation? Did he fail to stop when the overheads got lit? Did he take off running when he stopped? Had there been a crime committed by a person on a bicycle nearby? You apparently weren’t there. I’m not accusing anyone of anything, but I, and you, weren’t there, so we don’t know the whole story. What I do know is that cops are too busy to screw with people lawfully carrying a firearm without a valid reason. Your buddy did something else. If he didn’t, I’m assuming he settled the lawsuit prior to trial . . .

Yes, you are accusing me of lying and I don't appreciate it.
If you bother to read and comprehend my first post about the situation it may help.
Or maybe I need to type slower?
Try this...
From my first post about the situation. "A guy I know was violently assaulted by cops when his shirt blew up his back, briefly exposing his weapon, when riding a bicycle."

The police told him the gun was seen as he was riding the bike when his shirt blew around. They did not tell him if it was called in or if it was their observation.

The guy on the bike and both witnesses are co-workers of mine.
The stop happened just outside the break room, hence the witnesses.

You are the one making stuff up with the drunk and traffic violation implications and lawsuit fantasy. Your assertion that cops are too busy to "screw with people lawfully carrying" is a lie. Way too many corroborated stories of that happening.

 

[BC38]

Since open carry appears to be legal without a permit in both Idaho and Washington state (admitted five minute interweb search), I call that which makes the grass green and fragrant . . .

Open carry IS legal both here in Washington and in neighboring Idaho.

So someone seeing your concealed carry is NOT a violation of the law. You've got no obligation to conceal your carry in the first place.

If some snowflake called it in and claimed you brandished because they saw it, unless they went even further and filed a false report by lying to say you un-holstered it or otherwise displayed it in a threatening manner, or used it to intimidate, then the police dispatcher would tell them exactly that - that no law was broken.

Additionally Idaho is a constitutional carry state so you don't even need any kind of permit or license to carry concealed either.

I'd say this "instructor" needs to brush up on the law.

 

[moralem]

I Have To Ask This Question

If you don't know what the law is in the state where the OP is at what possible good does it do to comment on the law where you're at? which has zero bearing on the question being asked.

Entertainment value?