Curio & Relic, how to start the process?

[Kevin_85614]

I have a S&W .44 Spl Ctg with an original factory smoothbore barrel & choke. It is a First Model 44 Hand Ejector (triple lock) serial number 10810 (stamped on the butt and in the barrel shroud). I believe it was manufactured in 1912.
How do I start the process to have this gun registered as a C&R?

 

[Dan M]

welcome to the forum Kevin, the gun is already a Curio & Relic but the smooth bore will need to be documented as it shipped that way from the Factory. Then you will be able to apply for a permit/license with the BATF but be prepared to send the gun to them while waiting to get approval. and if they don't approve they will destroy the gun.

good luck

Dan

 

[nipster]

Pretty much anything older than 50 years is automatically a C&R. There is also a registry of designated C&R items, some of which may be less than 50 years old.

You dont have to send anything to the ATF.

 

[Muley Gil]

Pretty much anything older than 50 years is automatically a C&R. There is also a registry of designated C&R items, some of which may be less than 50 years old.

You dont have to send anything to the ATF.

I'm not so sure about that.

A smoothbore handgun is considered a sawed-off shotgun by the BATF-E, regardless of when it was built.

 

[Deacon KC]

An easy way to tell if a S&W is C&R eligible is if it has a Model number stamped under the crane area. No model number, it is automatically C&R.

 

[Frederick]

You might want to check your state laws. There may not be any federal laws pertaining to this gun but your state might be a differant story.

 

[murphydog]

As Gil mentioned, a short-barreled shotgun (as a smoothbore TL would be, even from the factory) is a different situation from other 50+ year old guns. I agree a factory letter is the first step, and perhaps Mr. Jinks at the factory can advise on the next steps should it letter as original.

 

[red9]

Gil and Alan are correct. I have been the ATF ruling route, shipping them the gun with the understanding that it would be exemted or destroyed. Fortunately, They did re-classify the gun (a .22 caliber H&R Handygun with stock) and it is now listed by serial number in the C&R book. If the triplelock letters as shipped as a smoothbore, you should have no problem with ATF. This is no different from them exemting short barreled Winchester rifles that are documented as factory trappers. Send a request to re-classify to the ATF Technical Branch in DC with a copy of the letter. They may then ask to see the original letter or the gun, but I am sure it will meet the criteria.

Bob

 

[bmg60]

Hi
You need to contact Mike Priwer he has a S&W that is like yours that has been approved.
His was a post war gun but with the same features as yours.
Jim Fisher
he is on the fourm.

 

[4-Screw]

An easy way to tell if a S&W is C&R eligible is if it has a Model number stamped under the crane area. No model number, it is automatically C&R.

That is not 100% accurate. In my C&R book, it is called a "partial list" per the ATF. I called them, and they said it was nearly impossible to list every gun. I spoke with the ATF because I bought a 1959 K-38, and the gun shop would not ship to me as a C&R holder because they insisted it was not in the book...long story...per the C&R List, a K-38 is not listed but a K-22 and a K-32 are listed. He said he would ship it only with written documentation from S&W.

Some guns, like commemoratives, are C&R but are clearly not more than 50 years old. For example, here are a few on the C&R List:

Smith & Wesson Model 66 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms 1933 – 1983 50th Anniversary

Smith & Wesson Model 66 Distinguished Combat Magnum, caliber .357 magnum revolver, marked with the Texas Sheriff's Association badge and "TEXAS LAWMAN" on the right side of the frame, commemorating 150 years of law enforcement in Texas 1836-1986.

Smith & Wesson model 66, Dallas Police Department Commemorative Edition 1881-1981.
Smith & Wesson, Model 66, "Naval Investigative Service Commemorative" .357 6-shot revolvers.

Smith & Wesson, Model 29 "Elmer Keith Commemorative" .44 magnum revolvers, S/N EMK1 – EMK2500.

 

[deadin]

He said he would ship it only with written documentation from S&W.

Do you have a factory letter showing ship date of 1959 or did you deduce the date from the serial lists in the SCSW? Without a letter I don't blame the dealer from balking at shipping it to a C&R. (That's the only "official" method of establishing dates.)
Besides, some dealers that aren't up on C&R's don't seem to be able to read and understand the "Over 50 years old" bit.

 

[4-Screw]

Do you have a factory letter showing ship date of 1959 or did you deduce the date from the serial lists in the SCSW? Without a letter I don't blame the dealer from balking at shipping it to a C&R. (That's the only "official" method of establishing dates.)
Besides, some dealers that aren't up on C&R's don't seem to be able to read and understand the "Over 50 years old" bit.

I found out the ship date from Roy, but he said that was not adequate. Also, the gun is a 4-screw. Any dealer/collector should know (or be able to verify) when the 4-screw guns were made. It had to fall somewhere between 1957 (1956 for a Combat Magnum) and 1961....rarely later, but possible. He should have also acknowledged that a K-22, K-32, and K-38 are all the same guns but a different variation.

 

[nipster]

An easy way to tell if a S&W is C&R eligible is if it has a Model number stamped under the crane area. No model number, it is automatically C&R.

That is absolutely not true... any "numbered model" made before May 31 1962 is a C&R. Be it a model 10, or model 29.

From the ATF Website: ATF Online - Publications - Firearms - Curios or Relics List - Update January 2009 through June 2010

Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list.

HOWEVER: If the firearm falls afoul of the 1968 National Firearms Act due to short barrel, fully automatic firing, etc, C&R status does not apply and you have to go through the NFA process.

Sending in a firearm to the ATF serves no purpose.

 

[deadin]

Any dealer/collector should know (or be able to verify) when the 4-screw guns were made.

Probably true, but unfortunately many dealers really don't give a hoot and don't want to spend the time checking. I run across one every once in awhile and have found it easier to either avoid them or play their game if I really want the gun. My last K-22 (circa 1951) was from such a dealer. I suppose I could have got all huffy and refused to buy from him, but then I wouldn't have scored a real nice K-22 for under $300.00.

 

[4-Screw]

Probably true, but unfortunately many dealers really don't give a hoot and don't want to spend the time checking. I run across one every once in awhile and have found it easier to either avoid them or play their game if I really want the gun. My last K-22 (circa 1951) was from such a dealer. I suppose I could have got all huffy and refused to buy from him, but then I wouldn't have scored a real nice K-22 for under $300.00.

Agreed, you said it perfectly....I scored the 8 3/8" K-38, 98% for $389 so I just went with the flow.

 

[red9]

"Sending in a firearm to the ATF serves no purpose."

Not always correct. They may want to inspect the gun to verify that it is an eligible factory variation, not a later modification. In your case, I hope the factory letter would establish that to ATF's satisfaction.

Bob

 

[alwslate]

Any gun over 50 yrs old is a C&R. The BATF website has links to the
official list of C&R guns that qualify for whatever reason, age or other-wise.

 

[Kevin_85614]

How do you contact an individual person (like Mr. Priwer) on the forum?

 

[mikepriwer]

Kevin and others

I picked up on this thread this morning. I do have a 44 smoothbore, and the gun was
ultimately designated, by BATF, as a C&R. In the case of the 44 smoothbore, being
more than 50 years old does NOT make it a C&R.

My gun was special-ordered for US Congressman Cecil King. The records do not
say anything about the smooth-bore. Given some information I have, its not clear to
me that, even if the factory made it, they are legal.

There was a lot of misunderstanding about these guns, in the early 1950's. It turns out
that .38 and .45 smoothbores are legal, but .44 smoothbores are not. There is a good
article documenting this whole affair in the American Rifleman, March 1957 edition,
titled " The Shot Revolver ruled - A Violation Weapon".

As Muley points out, smoothbore 44's with barrels less than 16 inches are, in effect,
short-barrel shot guns. And they are illegal, unless exempted by BATF. It may also
be possible to purchase the same kind of certificate that is available for fully
automatic rifles, etc.

Do you have a factory letter, that says that the gun was orignally manufactured as
as smoothbore ? If so, that may be important here.

Feel free to contact me - email is [email protected]

Mike Priwer

 

[Dan M]

Good Advice Mike, we know they made smooth bore 44's at S&W. attached is a copy of the letter of the 2nd model 44 I used to own.

unfortunately this gun had been factory converted to 38 special at a later date.