Cylinder indexing problem with Model 27

A

Aircrewman

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A friend has a 6" model 27 from the mid-seventies that he wants to sell. I am contemplating the purchase but the gun has a problem and I am hoping to get some help deciding if I should buy it or not but this problem with the cylinder is question mark....

The cylinder rotates correctly but on two of the cylinder charge holes the indexing tightens and seems to slow (like it has a "hitch") and the trigger pull becomes harder. While it will lock in to battery and fire correctly it is not right. The gun hadn't been fired much over the years and it hasn't been abused. But, as I noted, the gun works but it is rather disconcerting to have this stiff trigger pull.... Don't want to buy a problem gun and don't know how much it will cost to make right. Especially since the factory is not really willing/able to repair...

I have lubed the mechanism, it does not have crud under the extractor star, no powder flakes anywhere. It rotates perfectly on 4 of the cylinder holes. It just seems like it wants to stop on two charge holes, although it doesn't but it is exasperating to have this happen. I seem to remember this on some other guns of this manufacturing period by S&W...

Any thoughts from the 'smiths and experts?
 
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Two of the ratchets are wider than the rest. On these 2, the hand is binding between the ratchet and the frame at the end of the trigger pull. They will wear in over time with enough use, or can be filed to fit.

Filing ratchets is not for the inexperienced. It takes a skilled and practiced hand. There is a very fine line between not enough and too much. A good revo smith can do it in a few minutes. A poor one can ruin it in a few minutes.
 
Agree with the possibility of long ratchets.......could also be an issue with the interface between the extractor rod and the front locking bolt. Improper fit, or the extractor rod has some runout, (is not straight) which can cause the cylinder to bind.
 
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IMO Toolguy has made the correct diagnoses. Depending on the price I would consider purchasing this model 27 AFTER contacting S&W to see what repairing this condition would cost. I'll also note that Toolguy is 100% correct about it being extremely simple to get this repair WRONG and many gunsmiths today are so unfamiliar with revolvers that most of them won't even be able to identify the pawl on the extractor star that needs to be tuned. Quite simply DO NOT rely on some local "gunsmith" to do this repair, it take a real expert and nowadays most of those are working at S&W.
 
Thank you very, very much fellas! This is the answers that I was hoping to receive! The revolver is otherwise in really nice condition. Now the next issue is finding the competent gunsmith to fix the problem...... I am hoping that Smith and Wesson will accept the gun. If they don't I will have to scramble some. In the past, I think Cylinder and Slide worked on Smith and Wesson revolvers but I guess I'll have to call. There's a fellow in Phoenix, Arizona who is supposed to be very good on Smith revolvers too....
Then there's the cost.....
Thanks again to all who have responded with information on how to have this issue addressed!
 
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Aircrewmember,

The only thing that would show the symptoms you describe is fitting of the ratchet. Neither the cylinder dragging on the barrel extension, nor a slightly bent extractor rod has any effect on trigger pull, only the hand/ratchet fit.

Just use the gun a bit. Sit in front of the TV and cock the gun and let the hammer down a few hundred times and it will fix itself. Won't cost you $100-200 for UPS to/from S&W, and you won't be without the gun for 2-3 months!

Note I did not say dry-fire the gun! Just cock it, hold the hammer with your thumb and pull the trigger and let the hammer down. This does everything dry-firing does except put shock stress on the parts that can lead to premature failure of the frame studs, hammer nose and hammer nose rivet!
 
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I not only think Toolguy has nailed the problem, but I also suspect the gun has been like this since leaving the factory and wasn't fired enough by the original owner to notice, or he ignored it hoping it would go away on it's own. I see no reason why S&W wouldn't work on it, but as has been pointed out, there are a number of other places that will also take care of it. If it's as I suspect, S&W might even fix it for free. ;)
 
armorer951 said:
^^^
The front of the cylinder dragging on the forcing cone ("barrel extension") has no effect on trigger pull ???? What?
Click to expand...

So I should have said single-action trigger pull! OP wouldn't have even mentioned the trigger pull difference if he had been talking about double-action. I thought that would have been obvious from his description!

And while we are at it let's talk about nomenclature! The forcing cone is the tapered inner surface (conical) leading from the extreme breech end of the barrel to the rifling. There is no way that the cylinder can drag on the forcing cone, or even contact it! It can touch the face of the barrel extension.

If those of us who so, or should, know better about correct nomenclature, and used it (!), then maybe we could get others to know correct nomenclature instead of perpetuating errors! The excuse that "they will know what I meant anyway" simply doesn't cut it. Would it have worked with your teachers in grade and high school? I doubt it!
 
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Alk8944 said:
So I should have said single-action trigger pull! OP wouldn't have even mentioned the trigger pull difference if he had been talking about double-action. I thought that would have been obvious from his description!

And while we are at it let's talk about nomenclature! The forcing cone is the tapered inner surface (conical) leading from the extreme breech end of the barrel to the rifling. There is no way that the cylinder can drag on the forcing cone, or even contact it! It can touch the face of the barrel extension.

If those of us who so, or should, know better about correct nomenclature, and used it (!), then maybe we could get others to know correct nomenclature instead of perpetuating errors! The excuse that "they will know what I meant anyway" simply doesn't cut it. Would it have worked with your teachers in grade and high school? I doubt it!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the lecture and for pointing out my errors in "nomenclature" in the past and again today. I should know better. I'm sorry......I'll try to use better nomenclature in the future. I sure wouldn't want to proliferate the use of improper terminology. I was only a "C" student in college so it's no surprise I have such trouble with proper nomenclature and other important details.
I've only been at this since the mid-70's, so I still have a lot to learn. I suppose that's one of the many reasons I enjoy this forum so much.

I had no idea that the area commonly called the forcing cone, which is at the "extreme breech end of the barrel" was called the "barrel extension". My instructors at the armorer's classes always referred to it as the forcing cone. Just think, I've been using the wrong term for this part of the revolver for decades.
 
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This problem was common in some guns in the late 70's,and more common on guns from the 80's. The problem is annoying,and only a good gunsmith can correct it by filing the ratchets. I use to send the new guns back to Smith & Wesson to fix,but got tired of waiting 3-4 months to get them back.
 
Again, thank yuse guys!!!!!! This is quite a learning experience.... As I explained, I saw (felt) this problem with some revolvers by Smith many years ago. It was a perplexing problem. I am concerned that the cost to have the 27 fixed will be a little problematic for getting a price from the seller. Unless the fix is to use the method offered by Alk 8944. That certainly is a way to minimize cost to repair. So, now, I am uncertain as to how I can address this issue. Of course, the gun is not in my possession so I don't know if the owner is willing to have this done and I don't know if I want to buy it and take a chance...... I think, otherwise, it is a good revolver but the problem keeps me from making an offer and I don't think I can really make an offer until the costs of fixing can be more or less set.
 
BUY IT!

Aircrewman said:
Again, thank yuse guys!!!!!! This is quite a learning experience.... As I explained, I saw (felt) this problem with some revolvers by Smith many years ago. It was a perplexing problem. I am concerned that the cost to have the 27 fixed will be a little problematic for getting a price from the seller. Unless the fix is to use the method offered by Alk 8944. That certainly is a way to minimize cost to repair. So, now, I am uncertain as to how I can address this issue. Of course, the gun is not in my possession so I don't know if the owner is willing to have this done and I don't know if I want to buy it and take a chance...... I think, otherwise, it is a good revolver but the problem keeps me from making an offer and I don't think I can really make an offer until the costs of fixing can be more or less set.
Click to expand...

Buy it! It really isn't that big of deal. The inference above is that it is such a difficult job that only a select few of the anointed ones will know how to do it correctly............ IMHO, most qualified S&W Armorers will know how to identify the chambers therefore the extractor bosses to be filed on and can have the job done in under 30 minutes. Of course any pistolsmith worth their salt will do a complete armorer's check on all the related 'correct' functions of a S&W revolver.

And, If YOU are mechanically inclined, buy Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, "The S&W Revolvers, A Shop Manual" and do it yourself. Just expect to purchase a few tools and gauges. ............ Brownell's is your friend.
 
Aircrewman said:
...the trigger pull becomes harder.
...this stiff trigger pull
The gun hadn't been fired much over the years...
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm missing it but the stiff trigger you're feeling, is that when you're pulling the trigger DA?

Do you feel it's hard to cock the hammer, SA only, on those to chambers?

Does the cylinder spin freely with the cylinder open?

Have to removed the cylinder from the yoke barrel & cleaned it thoroughly?

I've had several occasions, with different revolvers, that would cock fine on most chambers but feel stiff & slow on others. After cleaning the yoke barrel thoroughly it would cock uniformly smooth again.

Can you clarify?

.
 
BLUEDOT37,
Yes..... stiff trigger pull double action very noticeable. Single action is stiff also, perhaps a little less difficult but noticeable. Hammer stiff to cock on affected charge holes...two of them as noted.

Cylinder does spin freely. Haven't taken sideplate off to clean action... Not my gun and not certain my friend is desirous of me doing this...
I too have had a few revolvers with similar problems. Sold for other things over the years....fortunately, I have had many more that have been trouble free! Still haven't made a deal for this gun. I think that my friend wants to sell it for top dollar so I am not certain about actually being able to obtain this one.....
 
Aircrewman said:
Yes..... stiff trigger pull double action very noticeable. Single action is stiff also, perhaps a little less difficult but noticeable. Hammer stiff to cock on affected charge holes...two of them as noted.
Click to expand...

With the cylinder open, & the cylinder release button held back, does it cock smoothly SA & DA?

If so, you can remove the one screw that releases the yoke so you can slide it out & the cylinder off the yoke to inspect/clean it. I may be wrong but it's an easy task to eliminate something simple. You'd be surprised what some residue/debris on it can do.

.
 
As soon as I can get the gun from my friend I will try the action described. Not certain that I will be able to accomplish said check soon... weather in Oregon currently not conducive to going to range.. getting to be a wimp in advancing age.... sounds like something that can be done with relative ease. Thanks for the tip.
 
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