DEFACED AND MISSING SERIAL NUMBERS

[Muley Gil]

I held a gunsmithing FFL from 1977 until 1997. The regulation book that was sent to all FFL holders used to state that a gunsmith could stamp a a duplicate serial number on a firearm before removing the old one.

That provision disappeared sometime in the 1980s. Just saying...

 

[k22fan]

I held a gunsmithing FFL from 1977 until 1997. The regulation book that was sent to all FFL holders used to state that a gunsmith could stamp a a duplicate serial number on a firearm before removing the old one.

That provision disappeared sometime in the 1980s. Just saying...

That change must have been before 1985. During 1985 a gunsmith that sporterized a U.S. 1917 for me was proud that he had a manufacturer's FFL that allowed him to stamp a duplicate serial number on the side of the receiver ring. He said gunsmiths that only had a gunsmith's FFL could not stamp a duplicate number even though the original number was not being altered. The issue was getting hunting rifles back and forth across the Canadian border without customs officials removing the scope base to see the s/n. At this point there is no way to prove who stamped the duplicate s/n or when it was added. There's a technicality that I can not see the long arm of the law pursuing.

 

[Marvin Gardens]

I'm going to make one more comment on this.

I met a young man once. Fine looking young man and well spoken. A couple of years earlier, he and his dad had gotten into an argument over something trivial. As a result of this squabble, the young man grabbed a baseball bat and beat his father to death with it, crushing his skull into mush in the process. His file made for some interesting crime scene photos. He was arrested, subsequently tried in Los Angeles County Superior Court, found guilty of murder, and sentenced to Life without the possibility of parole.

I mention this young man because of the hundreds of convicted felons I've interviewed, he was the only one who said his arrest, trial, and sentence was fair. Every other man or woman I interviewed said the police were corrupt or dirty, their lawyer was no good, the deputy district attorney lied, the witnesses lied, the law wasn't fair, or the constitution or uniform commercial code didn't allow the government to imprison them. Nothing about any of their situations was fair.

So, I think there is legal and there is what you think you can get away with. There is common sense and the law. There is what is just or fair and then there is the legal justice system.

There are just too many other unaltered guns out there for me to risk my freedom and treasure over one that someone has ruined.

Regards.

Bob

 

[Muley Gil]

"Anytime one round butts a square butt frame the number on the butt will have some portion ground off."

I have roundbutted a number of revolvers without removing the SN. Obviously, not all can receive the round butt treatment.

"...he was the only one who said his arrest, trial, and sentence was fair."

I worked corrections for a little while. EVERYBODY in the Mt Meigs Correctional Facility outside of Montgomery, Alabama was innocent back in 1978. I know this is true, because all 500 of them told me so.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Never happen I enjoy playing the devils advocate to much

Main point of this whole thing is avoid owning guns with seriously messed up numbers, but as a law abiding citizen you would actually have little to fear unless you do something dumb.

I content that unless something else is going on or you have a over zealous cop and prosecutor the worst that is going to happen is the gun goes bye bye.

And you are yet again very, very wrong. I know that you have disregarded every statute that has been thrown your way, but the fact remains that knowingly possessing a firearm with an altered or defaced serial number, regardless of who calls you out on it, if anyone, is a felony worth not more than ten years/$250,000 fine. I am not willing to take that chance.

I know you want to keep this flapjack on the griddle, but unless that girlfriend is a regular practitioner of federal criminal law, I'd quit taking her advice.

Stay down, man . . .

 

[opr1945]

Say, for example, a pistol has a serial number on it and somehow it now has a deep scratch across the serial number. However the number is still completely readable.

since it is not obliterated, altered or obscoured is gun legal to posses?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Say, for example, a pistol has a serial number on it and somehow it now has a deep scratch across the serial number. However the number is still completely readable.

since it is not obliterated, altered or obscoured is gun legal to posses?

Yes, it is . . .

 

[red9]

My Last Comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
How much wear can there be on said stampings? Even if I were to file them off I could make them reappear by using something like ferric chloride, so were they "really" gone? Define removed for the court please.

I have chemically restored obliterated serial numbers, testified in court (with before and after pictures), and had judges agree that restoration did not negate the obliteration. That argument is like the early attempted defenses to child pornography found on computers, claiming that digital info did not meet the definition of images unless printed.

 

[steelslaver]

And you are yet again very, very wrong. I know that you have disregarded every statute that has been thrown your way, but the fact remains that knowingly possessing a firearm with an altered or defaced serial number, regardless of who calls you out on it, if anyone, is a felony worth not more than ten years/$250,000 fine. I am not willing to take that chance.

I know you want to keep this flapjack on the griddle, but unless that girlfriend is a regular practitioner of federal criminal law, I'd quit taking her advice. Stay down, man . . .

Nope
I bet you never speed either. Yet, if you were to be involved in an accident going just 5 miles an hour over the limit you COULD be convicted of vehicular manslaughter even if the root cause of the accident was not your fault. IF the prosecutor went after your buns.

First of all around here the chances that it would end up in federal court as a sole offense are nil. Maybe if you did something stupid around a federal officer. Next of all the way the law really works is that unless you did something else and they wanted to hang everything they could on you it would get tossed if there was still a serial number somewhere one the gun. A prosecutor isn't going to waste his time. Next of all in Montana the chances of a jury convicting you of this as a sole offense are right around .00000000001. Plus, who is to say it never got moved when as mentioned previously when it was legal or are you trying to say that every gun that at a time when it was legal to do so is now illegal.

My point isn't that wouldn't be a problem if some over zealous person made an issue of it. It is that it would be very difficult for some one with an other wise clean record to be convicted on this alone. I am not taking about an idiot who goes to redoing class III weapons either. If there is a number on it somewhere the burden of criminal intent would be difficult to prove and convince a jury of.

And by the way yes, she has written several well accepted opinions for the federal courts and yes she used to do criminal law. How many have you done? Where did you get your law degree and practice federal law?????

You yourself can hold your position as long as you want and I understand you not wanting to take the risk. That is your choice.

In the case of the 1917 I am not going to remove or obliterate the original serial number stamping. It will remain attached to the butt of the gun in as permanent manner the original was. I am not going to worry about it being illegal either. Point is there is no law that says I can't weld on a gun, cut on it, reshape it etc. Therre was a thread here a while back where a guy cut the whole bottom section of a 1917 and shortened the grip frame and welded it back on to make a smaller grip. Nobody screamed the BATF didn't come to his door. The gun still has its serial number, but at one point you could say it was removed. You can take the literal reading of the law to the ends of the earth. But, that doesn't mean tthat is what is going to happen in court. Hardly.

PS also have yo ever heard of legislative intent. The wording of a law is just the very beginning.

 

[Art Doc]

I would not knowingly buy a gun with a defaced serial. But if I found myself with an older S&W and the number on the frame was gone but still found in other locations I would engrave the number on the grip frame and let it go. Is it legal by the letter of the law? No. Would I go to prison for it? No. Worst case the gun is confiscated.

I see no point in surrendering it to be destroyed. If I suspect it was stolen (and I would) no point in trying to locate the owner because the gun would still be destroyed.

 

[k22fan]

It is interesting that we made it this far without one mention of local laws. No matter what the federal law, the political persuasion of the city, county and state officials that the various LEOs need to please combined with state law provide a strong incentive for me to stay far, far away from any gun with altered manufacturer's name, model name or s/n. I would not pay one cent for a NIB Python or Registered Magnum that was so affected. I've posted links to and quotes from the state law multiple times in old threads. I'm also told that in Montana it is less likely there will be legal repercussions from speeding. That's great, if you live there.

 

[JSR III]

There has been more time wasted discussing this topic than the gun is probably worth. Re stamp, pre 1968, interstate commerce, ex poke o your facto, WHO CARES.

Why in GOD's name would anyone bother to waste their time with a questionable firearm worth maybe $400 when there are maybe 50,000 other guns available that don't require even a second thought.

Attorney's charge $100 to $500 around here and I can't imagine wanting to even bother getting involved with a gun that might cost me $$$ and my license to carry.

Run, don't walk to the nearest gun shop and buy something else.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Nope
I bet you never speed either. Yet, if you were to be involved in an accident going just 5 miles an hour over the limit you COULD be convicted of vehicular manslaughter even if the root cause of the accident was not your fault. IF the prosecutor went after your buns.

First of all around here the chances that it would end up in federal court as a sole offense are nil. Maybe if you did something stupid around a federal officer. Next of all the way the law really works is that unless you did something else and they wanted to hang everything they could on you it would get tossed if there was still a serial number somewhere one the gun. A prosecutor isn't going to waste his time. Next of all in Montana the chances of a jury convicting you of this as a sole offense are right around .00000000001. Plus, who is to say it never got moved when as mentioned previously when it was legal or are you trying to say that every gun that at a time when it was legal to do so is now illegal.

My point isn't that wouldn't be a problem if some over zealous person made an issue of it. It is that it would be very difficult for some one with an other wise clean record to be convicted on this alone. I am not taking about an idiot who goes to redoing class III weapons either. If there is a number on it somewhere the burden of criminal intent would be difficult to prove and convince a jury of.

And by the way yes, she has written several well accepted opinions for the federal courts and yes she used to do criminal law. How many have you done? Where did you get your law degree and practice federal law?????

You yourself can hold your position as long as you want and I understand you not wanting to take the risk. That is your choice.

In the case of the 1917 I am not going to remove or obliterate the original serial number stamping. It will remain attached to the butt of the gun in as permanent manner the original was. I am not going to worry about it being illegal either. Point is there is no law that says I can't weld on a gun, cut on it, reshape it etc. Therre was a thread here a while back where a guy cut the whole bottom section of a 1917 and shortened the grip frame and welded it back on to make a smaller grip. Nobody screamed the BATF didn't come to his door. The gun still has its serial number, but at one point you could say it was removed. You can take the literal reading of the law to the ends of the earth. But, that doesn't mean tthat is what is going to happen in court. Hardly.

PS also have yo ever heard of legislative intent. The wording of a law is just the very beginning.

Duly noted. Good luck . . .

 

[BB57]

PS also have yo ever heard of legislative intent. The wording of a law is just the very beginning.

Trust me on this when I tell you that the interpretation of legislative intent isn't as clear cut as you'd think nor is it as static as you'd think.

Absent substantial committee notes, it's sometimes hard to divine what the legislative intent actually was, and the public comment period and clearance process is frequently used to determine whether the proposed regulation follows or is consistent with perceived legislative intent (i.e if you get it wrong, legislators, OMB, DOJ, or EOP, will tell the cognizant agency writing the regulations they got it wrong).

In addition, passage of new legislation often has a bearing on how legislative intent is interpreted and applied to older legislation.

----

The short story here is that interpretations, while normally fairly stable, can still change over time, particularly when something that was not viewed as a problem in the past has become or is viewed as a problem in the present.

 

[Marvin Gardens]

I would not knowingly buy a gun with a defaced serial. But if I found myself with an older S&W and the number on the frame was gone but still found in other locations I would engrave the number on the grip frame and let it go. Is it legal by the letter of the law? No. Would I go to prison for it? No. Worst case the gun is confiscated.

I see no point in surrendering it to be destroyed. If I suspect it was stolen (and I would) no point in trying to locate the owner because the gun would still be destroyed.

I beg to differ sir.

A situation where the defaced serial number was on a stolen gun is a different matter. After recovery, if the gun could be identified as one reported stolen and belonging to a theft or burglary victim, it would be eligible for having a number stamped on it per the BATF letter that Kevin posted.

If I unknowingly purchased a firearm with a defaced serial number, I would turn it over to the police. I would not, assuming, that the gun was stolen, keep it and deprive the rightful owner of the opportunity to recover his property.

Regards.

Bob

 

[model70hunter]

I think my horse is down for the count, he may be dead.

The only opinion in a court room that counts is the judges.

The law is pretty black and white. I have seen guns for sale with defaced SN's and when the owner was told they danced around the issue or did not understand it. I never bought a defaced one. I know a guy who bought a Savage M-99 and traded it in to a gun shop. Later the LGS owner called him and said 2 numbers had been added to the end of the SN string. It was illegal. He pulled the parts off and dumped the action, local deputy I think picked it up.

I have seen LGS' try to put the crane assembly number down as the SN when I have bought pistols.

And some listed no SN on guns that had SN's if you knew where to look. One LGS said he was not going to change it in the books and wanted to leave it as no SN. I had to pass on a nice old S&W. What if it had been used in a crime?

If I had one I would never discuss it online, if I had one I would not sleep well having it in the house. I might lose money but not having it could be the best thing that never happened to you.

In today's environment having an illegal firearm is not smart. If they wanted to make a Federal case of it, well just imagine being arrested, calling home for bail, having the Feds search your house for more illegal guns, having the local TV station blow about your arsenal of 3 guns and untold numbers of ammo, live at 11PM. Imagine calling your boss and saying, can't make it in today I'm sort of stuck in jail.

Imagine never legally being able to own a firearm, ever.

Are the parts off and is it in the river? Handed over to the local LE?

Wishing or trying to find a loophole is wasted time on a federal law concerning firearms.

OK my horse is not quite dead after all the beating, my rant perked her up. If you have 4 of those obliterated guns we can hammer them into horse shoes....

 

[4MUL8R]

Is a manufacturer's serial number different from a US Government property number? For example, a military sidearm from 1918 might have a stamped number, related to the military ownership of that item.

 

[BB57]

Is a manufacturer's serial number different from a US Government property number? For example, a military sidearm from 1918 might have a stamped number, related to the military ownership of that item.

Usually the US military assigns a serial number range to the manufacturer, particularly when more than one source of production is used, to ensure there are no duplicate numbers, and then uses the "manufacturer's" serial number as the property number.

If other stamped numbers or rack numbers are added at the unit level, they do not serve as the serial number.

You'll often encounter police and military weapons that are also stamped with a property number.

Fro example I have a Walther PP stamped with JW - short for "Justiz Wein" - which signifies the Vienna state police. You'll also find Austrian police PPs marked "SW" for Sicherheitswache Wien which is more or less Safety/Security Guard Vienna Austria.

In this case it is still just a property number, even though in this case the FFL had it listed as the serial number (and had to log it back in properly so he could log it out properly).

That happened because a) the FFL wasn't at all familiar with PPs and b) because the aftermarket grips obscured the serial number on the frame, which is located under the projection on the grip behind the trigger.

------

However, it can get interesting when dealing with some foreign military and police contract firearms.

While the Vienna state police bought their pistols out of regular production, in some cases police departments in Europe bought them under a specific contract with a specified serial number range. For example a friend of mine has a Browning Hi Power with serial number "27". Given the actual age and configuration of his GP 35 (it's early, but not that early) it's clearly not the 27th GP 35 made. It is however the 27th example made under that particular French municipal police department contract.

As such that's a potential problem as there are potentially multiple Browning Hi Powers in the US using "27" for a serial number. That's one of the reasons importers have to either get a variance (which would not have bene granted in this case) or stamp their own serial numbers on imported firearms to ensure that each firearm of a particular manufacture and model has a unique serial number. In this case it is not stamped with an additional number as it's been in the US prior to 1968 when a serial number was required.

-----

In that regard, if a firearm was made for the US military, exported as military assistance, and then re-imported, a variance will normally be granted as the original serial on the receiver is unique - and that's desirable as it keeps the import marks to a minimum - but even then the import mark has to be visible.

For example, Big Sky re-imported a large number of M1 Garands in the 1990s and they had to have an import stamp. However, Big Sky put them on the barrel under the hand guard where they were not visible. That made the buyers happy, but ATF complained and they had to start marking them where it was "conspicuous" to clearly show it had been "imported", which was frankly pretty stupid as these M1s all originated in the US anyway.

You'll find import marks on a variety of US made arms that have been exported and then re-imported and it's important to understand that if for some reason the importer applied a new serial number rather than getting a variance, that's now the legal serial number, not the original manufacturer's serial number.

 

[Muley Gil]

Is a manufacturer's serial number different from a US Government property number? For example, a military sidearm from 1918 might have a stamped number, related to the military ownership of that item.

Colt 1917 revolvers in .45 ACP have two main numbers: the Colt serial number, which is stamped on the frame behind the crane and the US Army number stamped on the butt. The Colt number is the proper one to use if buying or selling. Colt considered the 1917 as a variation of the New Service line of handguns.

The S&W 1917 uses the US Army number stamped on the butt as the serial number. Thus, the 1917s have a separate serial number range from the rest of it's line of large N frame revolvers, such as their .44 Specials, .38 specials and the .357.