Defaced Serial Numbers

[RM Vivas]

I had contacted BATFE a while back with a question about defaced serial numbers. I think that it is worth sharing.

My question involved a New York Police Target Model M&P that had been fitted at the factory with a lanyard swivel. In installing the swivel, the factory removed one digit of the serial number HOWEVER the factory re-stamped the s/n on the frames under the grips. My question was would this additional s/n stamp negate any negative consequence of the butt serial number being defaced.

The response was from [email protected]

Mr. Vivas, Thank you for your inquiry to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB). I requested additional information from the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD). FATD has a better understanding of obliterating a serial number and the requirements.

If a firearm has a defaced serial number and the firearm was manufactured prior to 1968, is there any regulatory issue or concern? Presume that the defacement can be proven to have taken place prior to 1968.

Regardless of when the firearm was made, if the manufacturer applied serial number, is removed, obliterated, or altered, that is in violation of **§ 478.34 and 18 U.S.C. 922(k). Though some firearms were not required to have a serial number prior to 1968, if the manufacturer applied a serial number to the firearm, it would be illegal to remove, obliterate, or alter it. Under 922(k) it would be illegal to possess such a firearm.

Case : NYPD sells a revolver to an officer who is assigned to Highway duty. Highway officers are required to have a lanyard loop on their revolver. In 1963 the Department gunsmith drills a hole in the bottom of the butt frame to install a lanyard loop, removing one digit of the serial number.

The police departments partial removal or alteration of the serial number, though done in good faith and without criminal intent, is technically in violation of **§ 478.34 and 18 U.S.C. 922(k). . Some Smith & Wesson revolvers, have the whole or partial serial number stamped inside the frame, in the yoke area. So the missing number from the bottom of the butt frame, is possibly found elsewhere on the revolver. If the original serial number cannot be determined, a new serial number can be requested through the local ATF Field Office.

Case: In 1929 Smith & Wesson received an order for a revolver that is to have a lanyard loop. The factory takes a serial numbered frame, re-stamps the existing serial number on another part of the revolver frame (under the grip) and then drills a hole for the lanyard loop that removes one digit of the serial number. The work was done at the factory and the revolver never left the factory until after the work was done.

If Smith & Wesson marks the revolver frame in a different location at their factory, that is perfectly legal. As the manufacturer, as long as the frame is marked in accordance with the law, and the serial number is properly applied, there is no issue there. If a serial number was not even required at the time, and the manufacturer re-marked the firearm, it would not matter regardless.

Would either of these revolvers be subject to any particular regulatory scrutiny?

If you have additional questions, please feel free to reach out to your local ATF office for guidance. A listing of ATF offices can be found at: Local ATF Offices | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Thank you,

Dawn Smith, Program Manager (IOI)
Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB)
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)

 

[Truckman]

Clear as mud now...If I owned such a firearm in which the S/N had been restamped, I might not be able to prove conclusively that the restamping was done by the factory, or at what date...But I don't believe any overzealous BATFE employee would be able to prove otherwise either...In either case, if I came into possession of such a firearm, and the work had the appearance of legitimacy, I don't think I'd lose any sleep worrying about it...But it's good to get the official word for future reference...Thanks, Robert......Ben

 

[Onomea]

Lemme clean that up a little:

RM Vivas QUESTION: "My question involved a New York Police Target Model M&P that had been fitted at the factory with a lanyard swivel. In installing the swivel, the factory removed one digit of the serial number HOWEVER the factory re-stamped the s/n on the frames under the grips. My question was would this additional s/n stamp negate any negative consequence of the butt serial number being defaced."

ATF ANSWER: "The work was done at the factory and the revolver never left the factory until after the work was done... If Smith & Wesson marks the revolver frame in a different location at their factory, that is perfectly legal. As the manufacturer, as long as the frame is marked in accordance with the law, and the serial number is properly applied, there is no issue there."

Got it.

 

[Rudi]

Avoid any firearm with a suspect number.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Despite the fact that ATF is the gun community's favorite whipping boy, the agency we all love to hate, my firsthand experience with them in a matter like this was entirely positive.

In 2018, I entrusted a local gunsmith to refinish a pistol. After he returned it to me, I noticed he'd obliterated or covered over the serial number. He was unconcerned about it...literally told me not to worry about it. Knowing that I was in violation of federal law just being in possession of it, I emailed the ATF office in Baltimore to advise them of the situation, and to offer to surrender the pistol to them.

An investigator from ATF answered my email, and made an appointment with me to come over and examine the pistol. I removed the grips and magazine, and was ready to hand it over to her. When she arrived, she examined the pistol, and told me she would be in touch. She didn't take it with her.

She called me a few days later to offer a solution: If I was willing to have a new, ATF-assigned serial number engraved on the pistol, at my expense, ATF would close the case with no violation on my part. Of course I accepted the offer.

The key to the outcome in my case was that I reported the situation to them immediately, I was totally candid and honest with them, and I expressed my willingness and desire to comply with the law. If you work with them, they'll work with you.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I bought a S&W pre model 10 at a flea market several years ago for $300.00. The seller had several revolvers on his table but that was the one that interested me. It was a "C" serial number five screw in nice shape and I figured for that price I could use it as one of my household backup pieces, a truck gun, or just plink with it. It was wearing target rubber grips that covered the serial number. When we got back to the truck and started to leave Jr. told me to wait before we left. He got a screwdriver out of the glove box and removed the grip. The serial number had been ground off. I went back to the seller and told him he had sold me an illegal gun and showed him the absent serial number. He balked at first on giving my money back and I asked him if he had ever heard of the initials "ATF". He took the 38, gave me my money back in 100 dollar bills, and put the gun back on his table. I saw him count out three hundred dollar bills but when I got back to the truck I counted again. Two of the bills were stuck together. I now had $400.00. Did I take the extra hundred back? No, I figured he owed me that for the deceit and having to walk back up there again.

 

[Onomea]

All ya gotta do, usually, is just treat people straightforwardly, honestly. Best for you, and best for everyone else. It seems strange to me how many people don't get it.

 

[2152hq]

W/O some sort of Factory Letter/PaperWork to show that the Factory indeed did the alteration that obliterated the orig mfg applied ser# (The installation of a lanyard swivel on an already finished and #'d revolver of their mfg'r in this instance),,and that then the same Factory Repair Re-Stamped the guns orig ser# somewhere else upon the guns Frame before releasing it back to the customer,,,,,w/o that documentation, there is no proof that the alteration was done legally.
It could just as well have been done by about any decent mechanic/'smith.

It might look professional and really great like factory work and you want it to be of course., but you can't prove it as so.
In that case the gun is just another firearm with an 'Removed,Altered, or Obliterated mfg'r's applied ser#.'
..and you know what they say about those. It's about as plain as can be.

There are a couple of alternatives as have been pointed out, the addition of a ATF assigned prefix ser#, etc.
But a gun as it stands w/o the proof of factory alteration and re-marking is what it is.
Sounds like the OP's revolver has such paperwork of factory work.

FWIW, ser#'s were first REQUIRED to be marked on firearms in the USA in Jan/1958 (Fifty Eight).
That law went into effect in July/1958.
It covered ALL Handguns and Center Fire Rifles.
***Shotguns and cal.22RF long guns were exempt.

GCA68 added those last 2 catagorys to the 'must be ser#'d' in it's law.
So GCA68 demanded that ALL firearms mfg'rd and imported be ser#'d at that point.
An often misunderstood sentence taken to mean that no guns were required to be ser#'d before 1968.
But the Handguns and CF Rifles had already been under the rule since 7/58.

The Fed Firearms Act 1938 imposed the felony on Alteration, removal or Obliteration of a Mfg'rs applied ser# on a firearm. Plus possession or transfer of same.
It did NOT demand that any mfg'r actually ser# any of their production of guns.
The same reg was rolled over into GCA68 and remains today.
Most States also have their own State reg that is a near copy in wording of the Fed regulation. Many have added wording to include removal/alteration/obliteration of additional mfg markings such as Manf name, address, Model#, caliber,... even Inspection markings and so on. It varys from State to State.

NFA weapons were demanded to be ser#'d under NFA1933.
The same defacement rules apply.