Do You Intervene?

[b52buff]

After reading a lot of different stories. You can be as right as rain but it seems that our laws have been used it such a ways that the bad guy is better protected by the law than the good guy or the victim. Just look how many crooks go to jail just to get out in a short time to feed on some other victim. If you do some thing in self defense you better be sure you are right and there are no guarantees that the law will protect you!

 

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

A while back, a Very Large person of south pacific ancestry Beat his wife/girlfriend to death with a shotgun. He did not shoot her.

The local prosecuter said that if a citizen had shot the man, he would not have been prosecuted.

OK, on the surface sounds good.

BUT, Remember first, Hawaii is a leader in Anti 2A legislation. Includes shooting other people.

What the prosecutor and others Fail to understand is that, once a citizen shoots the man, HISTORY CHANGES. The beating death may never have happened.

What happened in one time line never happened so the prosecutor will not say or may not say it was OK. When the time line was changed, the shooter most likely would have been arrested for several firearms violations because the beating death never happened. Very costly defense and perhaps prison time.

Also, we do Not have CCW here in Hawaii for private citizens.

That's why here in Hawaii, I would NOT get involved, except to be the Best Witness I can be. If I have my point n shoot camera with me, I will be photographing the entire incident.

Many people here do not understand the concept of Alternative History. Do one thing and the time line as we KNEW it changes.

I hope you can understand what I am saying.

 

[jag312]

About 25 years ago San Mateo, California there was a bank robbery in progress. A detective working plain clothes in narcotics heard it on his police radio, and was the first person at the scene. He walked into the bank, stopped the robbery, and arrested the suspect. Two uniforms arrived at the scene minutes later. They walked into the bank and saw a man on the floor with a second man standing over him holding a gun. They immediately opened fire and shot the detective who they thought was the suspect. The detective survived, but he was crippled by his gunshot wounds and his law enforcement career was over. He was lucky he wasn't killed.

I would be real upset if an armed Good Samaritan walked into a crime scene and shot me because they assumed from my appearance that I was a criminal.

 

[ab4ka]

I'm not ashamed to say that if I heard something going down my first thought will be to look for a means of escape. Now if someone is coming after me or my family, it's on. Otherwise, if I can't get out I'm holding tight until help arrives. A little common sense and situational awareness is huge. If I (or my wife and I) go to a restaurant, I'm looking for doors and trying to sit where I can see the main entrance and close to a way out. Wherever I am, I'm looking around, staying alert. Lots of trouble can be avoided that way.

I'm just not prepared to deal with with inevitable civil suit that will be filed by the shooter's family. I know in Florida we are supposed to be protected from that, but I'm not taking any chances.

 

[reerc]

Thanks for the thoughts and replies so far, I do appreciate it.

Side note: A few responses have started out "This has already been discussed here" ... then a response followed - for which I am grateful. What we need to remember, is that new friends and members are always joining us here on this great forum, and not everyone has seen every prior thread and comment.

Thanks again all, be safe.

 

[Kanewpadle]

This has been discussed on the Forum ad infinitum, but here's my answer, again.

I know what I would do; I would be involved, directly. I have done so and will do so again. Period.

I always find it interesting...and a bit troubling...that so many backyard Ninjas are petrified to the point of inaction when real life presents itself in their world. Do recall Kitty Genovese.

I have never met, in person, another member of this Forum. However, I am willing to bet my life that certain of them would have my back. I am fairly sure I know just who they are; they know who they are.

I am happy such people exist.

Be safe.

I think you got it backwards. The backyard ninja is the one who would jump into a dangerous situation without thinking.

I think the correct answer to the original question is YES and NO.

YES under certain situations would I intervene. And NO in other situations would I intervene.

To intervene without assessing the situation first is downright stupid and deadly.

You can name people like Kitty Genovese and many more like her. But you also name others that died or shot the wrong person when they intervened without thinking first.

 

[handejector]

How can you plan for a hypothetical-what if-coulda/shoulda/woulda?

When it happens, IF it ever happens, you might have 10 minutes to make up your mind, or you might have a milisecond.

Learn to shoot, learn the difference between cover and concealment, play it by ear, and pray God's hand is on you.

 

[The Big D]

I am, quite frankly, pleased with the spirit of the responses. Indeed, people are put in situations for which they may not have planned and, regardless, must make instant decisions. That's tough to do.

I like to think about the unarmed school teacher who recently became involved and tackled a creep who was shooting. I think I'd like to hang out wherever he does.

Math Teacher Hailed Hero In School Shooting - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

Be safe.

PS:

There are two (at least!) Forum members who don't like me but they are among those whom I would count upon when the "you know what hits the you know what." I would be willing to bet they know who they are. (No, not just those who don't like me; the ones who would jump in, regardless. )

 

[bk43]

What if that's an undercover LEO defending himself or taking down a bad guy?

A couple years ago at a UCF football game tail gating party we had this actually happen. Two LEO agencies had not communicated/coordinated and two uniformed shot and killed an undercover from the other agency. Very sad deal for all involved and the memory of it puts me in the be really, really careful crowd on this issue.

Bob

 

[flop-shank]

Fratricide happens amongst LEOs and soldiers alike. It's far from unknown for a skilled, experienced soldier to shoot the wrong person when forced to make a split second decision. As a general rule, cops are smarter and better educated than your average grunt, but they are still human.

If you don't get involved you probably won't get shot by friendlies, or shoot one.

Just some food for thought.

 

[redlevel]

Math Teacher Hailed Hero In School Shooting - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

Apples and oranges. The math teacher was indeed responsible for the safety of those students. I once (unarmed) had to go in a restroom and pull two 25 year old thugs off two of my junior high basketball players when we were playing a tournament in a not so nice area of a little town in S Georgia. I was responsible for the well-being of those kids, and when I saw the trolls following them in the restroom across the gym, I knew I didn't have time to call the cops. The concept is in loco parentis. A teacher or school admin is considered to be acting in place of a parent.

That isn't the scenario put forth by the OP. In a public place involving someone shooting randomly, or even a holdup/robbery, I try to get me and my family the heck out of Dodge. I am only armed with a 5 shot j-frame, with possibly a .22 mag mini-revolver for backup. If it gets up close and personal, then I'll do whatever I can with the weapons at hand. I am going to slink away like a coward if at all possible.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I am, quite frankly, pleased with the spirit of the responses. Indeed, people are put in situations for which they may not have planned and, regardless, must make instant decisions. That's tough to do.

I like to think about the unarmed school teacher who recently became involved and tackled a creep who was shooting. I think I'd like to hang out wherever he does.

Math Teacher Hailed Hero In School Shooting - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

Be safe.

PS:

There are two (at least!) Forum members who don't like me but they are among those whom I would count upon when the "you know what hits the you know what." I would be willing to bet they know who they are. (No, not just those who don't like me; the ones who would jump in, regardless. )

I would certainly help you if I could.
But since ALL of my friends are armed, I don't worry about them. I take care of me and mine first.

It is my duty and responsibilty to my family to protect them to best of my ability. And they expect me to come home to them alive and uninjured. Everyone else comes second.

As handejector said, we can't plan for every possible situation.

Situational awareness, preparedness, training, practice, and knowledge of the use of deadly force need to be considered before any "what if scenario".

 

[Faulkner]

Situational awareness, preparedness, training, practice, and knowledge of the use of deadly force need to be considered before any "what if scenario".

Bingo . . . .

 

[Capt Steve]

For 35 years I was a recreational boater. For 15 of those I was a licensed professional. One of the most effective ways to be prepared for the unexpected/unthinkable is to mentally prepare. I used to spend long night watches mentally rehearsing what I would do (and especially what I should do first), in the event of a fire, water coming in, a man over board etc. Analyzing which steps to take first and thinking through various disaster scenarios allowed me to reach a higher level of preparedness. When problems did arise I was always two steps ahead of the curve having been there, done that mentally and on more than one occasion was able to save the boat and probably lives.

The same technique applies well to this thread. Do think about where you should park when visiting a stop and rob late in the evening? Ever scouted the lobby of your local bank for places to take cover if some idiot starts shooting? Which of your neighborhood ATM's are the safest late at night? Maybe I just have too much free time on my hands but I think about stuff like this and make plans. Any emergency situation will probably come at you hard and fast and being prepared will allow you to make those first critical decisions not only quickly but wisely.

 

[scooter123]

I've been doing some shooting at a nearby indoor 50 yard range and I've learned a few things from this. First, at 100 feet your groupings will be more than triple the size of your groupings at 50 feet. The best I've managed so far at 100 feet was a 2 1/4 inch vertical string and that was from a bench rest while seated using a red dot equipped 610. Add an adrenaline surge into the equation and you'll be damned lucky to score one single hit at long range with the short sight radius typical for most CCW guns. If you don't believe it, try shooting your CCW choice some time at a 50 yard line, you'll find it a challenge just to hit the target. Fact is at 50 yards an 8 inch target looks about as big as the head of a pin. People always express concerns about over penetration in these scenerios when what they really should be concerned with is where their misses will land.

I try and get in at least 50 rounds of weekly practice with my carry gun and am quite familiar with my skill level with that gun. When shooting offhand using a supported grip I can generally group between 2.5 and 4.5 inches at 40 feet, depending on caffiene intake and blood suger levels. Factor in the effects of adrenaline and I wouldn't attempt any offhand shot beyond about 30 feet. For those not aware of it, 30 feet is pretty darned close.

In this scenerio I would 1) find cover, 2) call 911, and 3) observe and only act to protect myself and others in my immediate area if the shooter came within range. Give me a rifle and I might do something more, however I'm not in the habit of carrying a rifle while running errands.

 

[CowboyKen]

I can't answer this question. ... I don't carry my gun to save the world. Just the people that I love.

As others stated above me, once you engage in a firefight, you will have to spend money for a lawyer no matter how right you are. You put yourself at great odds of being sued in a civil case in which you have to spend money on a lawyer. ...

Not necessarily so, may depend on where you are.

Victims Released; No Charges Filed Against Reno Man In Winnemucca Shootings

Ken

 

[Hook686]

I would duck for cover and call 911, then seek a good 'Exit stage left' the quickest I could. If no exit, I'd hunker down and wait for the cavalry.

 

[Knightrider03m]

Not necessarily so, may depend on where you are.

Victims Released; No Charges Filed Against Reno Man In Winnemucca Shootings

Ken

Dosen't matter were you live. I don't care if someone broke into my house and I killed him and moments before he broke into my house, he told the whole police department that he was going to break into my house to kill me. I will still have my lawyer with me. Plus the guys family can still sue me come back and sue me. Even if the family lose, I still have to pay for legal help in both the criminal side and the civil side. Below is a link to youtube. The video will tell you why I will never talk to the police unless a attorney is with me even if the police are the same people that I've broke bread with. Which if a shooting happens in my house, the police that will take me to jail is the police that I've broke bread with often.


YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

You can copy and paste the link. For those who have loved ones even if they don't carry should see this video.

 

[reerc]

Got started on the vid, but gotta go to bed now, 5 am comes in about 5 hours.

I saved the link, and do plan on watching the whole thing (48 min).

I have no bones to pick with any LEOs, but don't disagree with what I've read on this forum either, that when investigating a crime, the police are not your friends.

 

[CowboyKen]

Dosen't matter were you live. I don't care if someone broke into my house and I killed him and moments before he broke into my house, he told the whole police department that he was going to break into my house to kill me. I will still have my lawyer with me. Plus the guys family can still sue me come back and sue me. Even if the family lose, I still have to pay for legal help in both the criminal side and the civil side. Below is a link to youtube. The video will tell you why I will never talk to the police unless a attorney is with me even if the police are the same people that I've broke bread with. Which if a shooting happens in my house, the police that will take me to jail is the police that I've broke bread with often.


YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

You can copy and paste the link. For those who have loved ones even if they don't carry should see this video.

I won't say you are wrong, and you are entitled to your point of view. I only posted an example of an actual case where a CCW holder shot and killed a bad guy, in a biker bar, at 2:30 a.m., and the DA said JUSTFIED. End of story. No issue of whether or not the CCW holder had been drinking or what else he was doing in a biker bar at that hour. Just "Good Shoot."

I think things may still work the way they should here in Nevada at least some of the time.

Ken