Effective .38 caliber for Self Defense - S&W 642

[Acebow]

I just bought some of these, but haven't shot them yet. Have you tried them?

Haven't shot the .38's, but have done a little work with the .45LC load out of a 4 5/8" Blackhawk. According to an avid handgun hunter, who also does a lot of training for various Law Enforcement and Military groups, the hard-cast loads (both calibers) penetrate much better on flesh and bone than the soft-n-slow target loads. The target loads are designed for putting holes in paper; the hotter, hard-cast loads are designed for more penetration--and still make nice, neat holes in paper.

Yes, there are stories about people being shot with the target loads, and being DRT; there are a lot more occasions where the target loads didn't do squat. Shooting flesh, whether people or critters, is never a sure thing. As a child, I read a story in one of the outdoor magazines about a guy who shot a grizzly bear with a .22, one shot, and killed it--the bullet went into the nasal cavity and hit some part of the brain, dropping it on the spot. So, based on that story, a .22 could be considered an ideal bear-hunting load. Eh.... maybe not.

IF one simply MUST use a non-hollow point bullet for defense, I'll agree one with a flat nose would be a better choice. Flat-nosed bullets tend to penetrate deeper, and in a more direct line, than round-nose bullets. BUT, why limit yourself with inferior loads, when all the research and development in bullets and powders the last couple decades has provided us with loads that penetrate well and [usually] expand to cause larger wound channels?

Again, somebody will come up with a story where some Super Blaster New Fangled Magic Hollow Point didn't expand and drop a bad guy like a rock. Well, we're talking about handguns, not mortar shells. Sometimes handgun bullets, no matter how well designed and how good the placement, don't expand. That's why we shoot until the threat is over. Limiting our possibilities using outdated bullets is less than wise.

Whew, much longer reply than I intended. Sorry for being so long-winded. Acebow

 

[Gamecock]

BUT, why limit yourself with inferior loads, when all the research and development in bullets and powders the last couple decades has provided us with loads that penetrate well and [usually] expand to cause larger wound channels?

The great leap forward has been in marketing.

 

[Acebow]

The great leap forward has been in marketing.

Nope, that's just so much fertilizer.

The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers. For years, manufacturers of rifle hunting bullets have worked to get desired performance levels from different hunting bullets, according to the recommended use of the bullets. For example, for big game, like bears, elk, moose, etc., they were able to design bullets to push deep with good expansion, and survive striking bone; those bullets may push too deep before expanding to give good performance on deer-size game, an would likely pass through a coyote with no expansion at all. But a different design, intended for thinner-skinned, smaller 'big' game, like deer or antelope, probably wouldn't push deep enough in bigger (sized and boned) game like moose or a grizzly bear. Then, there are smaller caliber bullets designed for varmints that would be devastating on a coyote or bobcat, but not exit the chest cavity--designed to work that way to save the pelt; they would make lousy deer or antelope bullets. BUT all these different bullets are designed to work within a certain 'velocity envelope'--too slow, and they won't expand; too fast, and they'll expand explosively and leave shallow, often non-fatal, wounds (as in using varmint loads on Bambi).

As to handgun bullets, when the market (usually starting with LEO agencies, then moving to the commercial market) began demanding better performance than the old Cop Killer bullets--ie: Round Nose Lead and FMJ/Ball ammo--the ammo companies started trying to deliver. Hollow points of different capabilities appeared, one of the first being the so-called FBI load, the SWCHP; they worked much better than the FMJ and RNL, and still perform well--if the lead is soft enough or the harder-cast lead is gas-checked so as to be pushed to a higher velocity (to allow the harder lead to expand better). As time went by, more and more and better and better designs appeared--with a few failures along the way. For example, after the Miami shootout, the FBI insisted on deeper-penetrating loads for their 9mm pistols, and the 147gr HP appeared on the scene--and in the early iterations, were a crappy load for social purposes, proving to be about as ineffectual as a FMJ; the first 147-grainers didn't expand worth squat. Time has gone by, R&D was done, and now we have available some mighty fine 147gr loads, such as Federal HST and Winchester Ranger. The same thing has happened with lighter 9mm loads, the .40S&W, .45, etc etc.

In the .38Spl, there are a number of more-than-adequate loads available, including (to repeat one that has been mentioned in other posts) the Gold Dot Short Barrel load, which has been developed to maximize the potential of shorter-barrel revolvers. This load has been used extensively by the New York City PD (I think it was developed for them, initially), and other agencies, and has proven to be much much more effective than the old 'solid bullet' loads--RNL, FMJ, or SWC--of the past. That's not marketing, not an opinion, it's a fact based on real-life use.

One caution on the GDSB load, though; it is designed specifically for 'short barrel' guns--4" and under. I've seen reports on tests that out of 6" and longer barrels, the load can have a tendency to break apart and cause shallow wounds, probably because out of the longer barrels the velocity tends to go too high--outside the intended 'velocity envelope'.

IF somebody just has to use the old designs for defensive purposes, for whatever reason (afraid of new technology; 'it worked once before, so it will work again'; it's the only bullet available until I get to the store and buy something better; whatever), I'd suggest having lots of reloads, or a friend alongside with a bigger gun. Acebow

 

[Gamecock]

"The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers."

That's as far as I got. It defies physics. Expansion reduces penetration. Penetration from the .38 SPL marginal. Adding expansion will further reduce that inadequate penetration. It's physics, not fertilizer.

 

[CH4]

When I was carrying my 642 I was using Speer 135 grain short barrel + P's in it. I'm sill using them in the 640 Pro I'm carrying now.

Yep, these are what me and my learned colleagues prefer.

 

[ClayCow]

"The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers."

That's as far as I got. It defies physics. Expansion reduces penetration. Penetration from the .38 SPL marginal. Adding expansion will further reduce that inadequate penetration. It's physics, not fertilizer.

Actually thats not the case. Different velocities, shapes, projectiles and charges will have different results. You are correct though, it is physics.

 

[JohnHancock]

The old "two holes bleed more than one" philosophy has its place and if the OP were referring to .380, I might agree. However, .38 special is a different story and I feel that with the increased velocity and projectile weight, it provides a little more to work with in the realm of "physics." Yes there are tons of marketing claims in the CC ammo market and many are just that, but I find it hard to argue with the proven track record of the FBI+p load, which effectively combines expansion AND penetration!

 

[M E Morrison]

"The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers."

That's as far as I got. It defies physics. Expansion reduces penetration. Penetration from the .38 SPL marginal. Adding expansion will further reduce that inadequate penetration. It's physics, not fertilizer.

Penetration with a 158 gr seems to be adequate. Since my M36 is regulated for this weight, that's another good reason to stick with it.

 

[pete950]

"The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers."

That's as far as I got. It defies physics. Expansion reduces penetration. Penetration from the .38 SPL marginal. Adding expansion will further reduce that inadequate penetration. It's physics, not fertilizer.

Very well put!!!
Remember what some one else has said on this forum and it is very true,
shot placement is KING!! Next the bullet has to reach vitals .

 

[Acebow]

According to 'physics', a bumblebee can't fly.

I guess all those cops who have shot bad guys with the GDSB load are lying about how much better it works than the old solid bullets. Acebow

 

[one eye joe]

IMHO, YOU CAN'T DO ANY BETTER THAN THE SPEER GOLD DOT, 135 GR, .38SPL +P OUT OF A 642. ITS DESIGNED FOR SHORT BARRELS, AND USES LOW FLASH POWDER. CHECK THE BALLISTIC GELATIN TESTS OF THE MYRIAD LOADS OF .38 SPL ON YOUTUBE, AND DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION. IT WILL GET THE JOB DONE ! ! !

 

[AZretired]

I say go with Fed-Rem or Win +P 158 LSWC-HP If is expands great if not at least it will penetrate.

 

[M29since14]

Everyone has an opinion. Here are my three favorites:

1. FBI Load
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel
3. Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman

(nr. 3) A 158 LSWC at 1000 FPS... from a 2" 642? Holy cow! Whatever his pressure equipment tells him, I don't think I would want to shoot very many of those from one of my guns. That is really "packing the mail!" Better have a great set of stocks if you plan to shoot those things - and maybe gloves, too!

 

[one eye joe]

I say go with Fed-Rem or Win +P 158 LSWC-HP If is expands great if not at least it will penetrate.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM--NO EXPANSION AND OVER PENETRATION….

THE GOLD DOT DOES IT JUST RIGHT. RELIABLE EXPANSION WITH HUGE DAMAGE, PERFECT PENETRATION, AND TOTAL WEIGHT RETENTION. HERE'S JUST ONE OF THE TESTS OF THIS FINE AMMO. ALL OF THE TESTS MIRROR THESE RESULTS….(BTW--I DON'T HAVE SHARES IN SPEER. I'M JUST TRYING TO PUT MY FELLOW FORUM MEMBERS ONTO A GOOD THING.) [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khazbS9pWjE[/ame]

 

[Nevada Ed]

That is all and good IF you can handle these High-vel to +P loads.
I have a family member that went out and bought herself a 642
all on her own............

Now she is trying to learn to shoot it with all types of ammo from the 148gr light target to the 158gr LRN Federal standard loading. This last load is about all she can handle right now.
She way get to handle the recoil in this light revolver but she might just have to go down to the little 110gr if things don't work out.

Her husband and I will have a long talk with her if things don't look right.
No use having a gun that will get you hurt or killed, just because it is cute .

 

[Otreb]

I like the newer lots of the 135gr Gold Dot. Early on, it showed big spreads in velocities and sometime pretty low readings over the chrono.
The +p FBI load from Buffalo Bore ran 950fps avg vel in my 442-2, no issues with bullet pull in it or my 18oz 242 over 5-7 shots. The std pressure version of the same load will penetrate deep and expand some in gello with 4 layers of denim at 850fps, so I feel pretty confident with 950-1000fps.
I personally didn't find recoil all that objectionable for the performance it brings, but some might. It did 1013fps in the 2.5" 242 and over 1100fps in a 4" mod 64. It's a solid defense load by any measure for a handgun.

 

[M29since14]

That's moving right along. I have a little trouble with ".38 Special +P" in these 950-1000 FPS loads in 2-inch guns.

A western friend who is quite a bit beyond what I would call an "adventurous handloader." He has a 158 LSWC load with HS-6 that he speculates is in the high-20sK PSI range - probably around 27-28000 PSI. (FWIW, I believe he as the "knowledge base" to make a pretty fair guess about that.) That is way beyond .38 Special +P. His load clocks ~920 FPS in two different 442s that he owns.

I'd sure like to see the pressure data for anyone's load that claims 950-1000 FPS from a 2-inch gun - certified by an independent lab.

 

[one eye joe]

That is all and good IF you can handle these High-vel to +P loads.
I have a family member that went out and bought herself a 642
all on her own............

Now she is trying to learn to shoot it with all types of ammo from the 148gr light target to the 158gr LRN Federal standard loading. This last load is about all she can handle right now.
She way get to handle the recoil in this light revolver but she might just have to go down to the little 110gr if things don't work out.

Her husband and I will have a long talk with her if things don't look right.
No use having a gun that will get you hurt or killed, just because it is cute .

A GREAT ADDITION TO THE 642 IS THE CRIMSON TRACE, LASER GRIPS MODEL LG-405. IT IS PADDED WITH AN AIR CHAMBER ON THE BACKSTRAP, AND IS LONG ENOUGH TO AFFORD A GOOD PURCHASE. WEARING THESE, THE 642 BECOMES VERY MANAGEABLE. SPEER MAKES A "LAWMAN" TRAINING AND RANGE CARTRIDGE, WHICH IS A 135GR TOTAL METAL JACKET LOAD. ITS VERY CLEAN BURNING AND EXCELLENT FOR USE ON INDOOR RANGES. ACCORDING TO THE BOX, IT IS INTENDED FOR USE AS A TRAINING LOAD FOR LEO THAT WILL CARRY THE 135 GR GOLD DOT AS A DUTY LOAD. I HAVE BEEN SHOOTING THEM OUT OF MY 642, AND MY SNUBBY 686, WHICH ARE MY CARRY REVOLVERS STUFFED WITH GOLD DOTS. I WOULD GET A PAIR OF LG-405s ON YOUR WIFE'S 642, AND LET HER GET COMFORTABLE WITH THE LAWMAN TRAINING LOAD. SHE'LL GET PROFICIENT WITH THE SET UP, AND WILL NO DOUBT LOVE THE CONFIDENCE THAT THE LASER GRIP INSPIRES. SHE'LL BE GOOD TO GO…..

 

[Acebow]

Speaking of hot .38 loads---a coworker used to carry a Colt Detective Special as a BUG, and loaded his own ammo. Don't know what powder he used, but he had a very scientific method to determine the proper charge--whatever would fit in the case and still let him clamp the bullet in the case (yes, 'clamp', not 'crimp'). Made a big fireball when he shot the gun, and I have no idea why it never blew up in his hand.
I tried to diplomatically discuss the waste of powder, considering the amount that was burning outside the gun (in hopes he'd tone it down and maybe not blow his hand off sometime), but he'd just chuckle and carry on.
Sometimes I wonder what became of that gun after he died. Kinda hope he was buried with it.... Acebow

 

[Otreb]

That's moving right along. I have a little trouble with ".38 Special +P" in these 950-1000 FPS loads in 2-inch guns.

A western friend who is quite a bit beyond what I would call an "adventurous handloader." He has a 158 LSWC load with HS-6 that he speculates is in the high-20sK PSI range - probably around 27-28000 PSI. (FWIW, I believe he as the "knowledge base" to make a pretty fair guess about that.) That is way beyond .38 Special +P. His load clocks ~920 FPS in two different 442s that he owns.

I'd sure like to see the pressure data for anyone's load that claims 950-1000 FPS from a 2-inch gun - certified by an independent lab.

Sure, me too......but there have been handloads, even included in Handloading publications with pressure data that match or even exceed those numbers within SAAMI pressures.
So maybe his loads are that hot, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that other loads aren't.