Otreb, where can I find the data you are referring to? I would like to see a load like we are discussing that is within .38 +P pressure. Please cite the source and I will try to find it. Thanks. 
Effective .38 caliber for Self Defense - S&W 642
- Thread starter Lincoln9
- Start date
I like the fact that the Speer +P 135 gr GDHP ("short bbl") is a round that was specifically designed to maximize the .38's performance when shot from a snub-nosed revolver, along with the fact that NYPD has nothing but praise for this round after years of use on the streets. If it wasn't doing the job and doing it consistently, it would not continue to be the issued round. That's not marketing hype, that's reality.
The 158 gr LSWC and the 135 speer GDHP are both great performers. Choose your poison
Denim seems to plug them up and cause no expansion however... it is common in most rounds fired from snub nose revolvers.
Can't go wrong with either really
Denim seems to plug them up and cause no expansion however... it is common in most rounds fired from snub nose revolvers.
Can't go wrong with either really
So...I bought a few of the 50 round boxes of the Speer 135gn+P short barrel stuff. I have shot this ammo before, and it is great stuff. But...I noticed the new ammo doesn't seem to have much crimp. I compared it to the ammo I bought a year or so ago and the older ammo definitely has a visible crimp. Anyone else notice this issue?
I bought it online, and have heard that at times these online ammo companys get ammo that LE agencies have resold, as it didn't meet their quality control standards.
I was happy to get this ammo, and they could have switched to a taper crimp as far as I know. But thought it was worth asking the question for those who haven't inspected their ammo, and/or may not have access to a good crimp die.
I bought it online, and have heard that at times these online ammo companys get ammo that LE agencies have resold, as it didn't meet their quality control standards.
I was happy to get this ammo, and they could have switched to a taper crimp as far as I know. But thought it was worth asking the question for those who haven't inspected their ammo, and/or may not have access to a good crimp die.
A few thoughts:
FBI protocols, expansion and penetration
A few posts have skirted the edges, but the FBI test protocols require 12" minimum to 18" maximum penetration in 10% ballistic gel with expansion to at least 1.5x the bullet's original diameter. Why 12" to 18"? Because the older 7" minimum didn't get the job done in a number of cases when bone, doors, windshields and other than face to face target aspects were encountered in the real world, and because anything over 18" poses an excessive risk of over penetration. LEOs already hit way too many innocent bystanders with their misses, it's nice not to also have them hitting them with their hits.
1.5x expansion is .5355" for a .357" bullet and that's the key element in .38 Special hollow point performance.
Some folks have stated that adequate expansion from a 2" barrel .38 Special is the problem, and they are correct, others have stated that with the limited energy available, expansion will reduce the penetration as there's no free lunch and they are also correct.
What's different now
Where technological advancement in hollow point design has helped the .38 Special is in designing hollow points that a) operate at 2" .38 Special velocities, b) expand in a more controlled/slower fashion, and c) don't over expand.
Some of today's hollow points use very aggressive petal designs that for the most part expand early, and then over expand to .58" to .62" and as a result they deliver less than the 12" minimum penetration that the FBI feels is prudent.
The 125 gr Hornady XTP was designed balance penetration and expansion to the FBI minimum in terms of mushrooming to 1.5 times the original diameter over a fairly wide range in velocity and it does that very well. What it does not do is open up in the very pretty star shaped mushroom with lots of jagged petals - it opens up in more of a "smoosh". But by staying with the minimum expansion figure it will meet the 12" minimum and usually exceed it by a couple inches in a 2" barrel with a +P load optimized for a shirt barrel.
The old 158gr LSWC-HP +P FBI load accomplished the same thing as the Hornady XTP in a +P load but to do so the bullet had to be swaged from very soft lead. The harder alloy you're likely to find today is optimized more toward not leading barrels and it's unfortunately less likely to expand.
The 125 gr Gold Dot +P is also designed with limited expansion in mind and it stays in the .560 range.
4 layer denim tests
All of the above hollow point rounds have a tendency to plug with denim in the 4 layer denim test designed to simulate heavy clothing and then penetrate to about 18-20".
That's not all bad in a .38 +P however as the bullet is less likely to over penetrate with enough force to seriously wound a bystander. Skin is flexible stuff and generally speaking the force required for a bullet to exit through the skin is equivalent to the force needed to penetrate about 4" of ballistic gel.
The Remington Golden Saber 125 gr +P tends to expand to around .62" but the brass jacket opens up more slowly so the hit on penetration is not as much as it would be otherwise. It generally under penetrates by about .5" to 1" from a 2" barrel, which is probably close enough to 12" not to make much difference in the real world.
On the other hand, it's one of the few hollow points that will reliably expand after 4 layers of denim from a short barrel revolver, so if you live in a cold climate, it is not a bad choice.
.380 ACP versus the .38 Special
Lots of shooters stand by the standard pressure .38 Special and then look down on the .380 ACP as not being adequate for self defense purposes. The devil however is in the details and in both cases adequate performance is very dependent on the load and the barrel length.
Standard pressure .38 Special loads won't get the job done in a 2" barrel and it's a mistake to attribute 4" ballistics to a 2" revolver. Even with a +P load, it takes a very well designed load to meet the bare gel penetration and expansion standards, and then you will still come up short on expansion in the 4 layer denim test.
Similarly, to get the job done in a .380 ACP takes the right load (the 90 gr XTP in one of a handful of loads). You also need a barrel that's at least 3.4" long. The 3.4" to 3.9" barrels in the PPK, PPK/S and PP series pistol are long enough to get it done with velocities in the 1000-1050 fps range. The short barrels in the micro sized .380s won't get it done.
Consequently, in both cases blanket statements just won't cut it and both calibers are on the ragged edge of the accepted minimum when it comes to pocket sized pistols.
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False. Both calibers are below accepted minimum.
No trick bullet is going to make them acceptable.
M E Morrison
Member
FWIW dept:
Based entirely on others reports and gel tests, it was widely reported that the old RP was the only one to reliably expand from a 2" barrel, while the other brands did well in a 3" or longer barrel. However, recent observations indicate that RP has changed the alloy & expansion is now not so likely.
M E Morrison
Member
opinions vary quite a bit on this, so what do you think is the minimum?
Jeff Cooper said, "The only sure stopper is a supersonic telephone pole."
Pistols are marginal personal defense weapons. Rifles/shotguns are better. But pistols are handy, and can be carried concealed.
I say carry as much gun as you can handle. Bigger IS better. But if a .380 is what you can handle, carry it. I think trying to make a .357 magnum out of a .38 snubby is a fool's errand.
I think the better pistol SD cartridges start with .40 S&W. But I have carried .380, 9mm, .38 SPC, and 38 Super. Jacketed flat points, except for 38 SPC. I don't believe in hollow points for pistols. Good for rifles, but not pistols.
My opinion. Now where did I leave that Nomex suit?
jw mathews
Member
Has anyone tried the Federal Nyclad 125 gr standard pressure ammo? Federal took over the Nyclad manufacture from S&W and improved the shape of the bullet from SWHP flat nose to a more rounded shape with a larger-diameter HP.
My understanding is that the original design benefits of Nyclad were to provide less-toxic bullets for indoor range use, AND the nylon coating reduced friction allowing higher velocity from 2" barrels (thus more energy) without having to use +P pressure levels. These loads were specifically intended for the Chief's Special & similar snubbies.
My understanding is that the original design benefits of Nyclad were to provide less-toxic bullets for indoor range use, AND the nylon coating reduced friction allowing higher velocity from 2" barrels (thus more energy) without having to use +P pressure levels. These loads were specifically intended for the Chief's Special & similar snubbies.
M E Morrison
Member
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