If one wants to use wadcutters as a defense load, I'd suggest checking out Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast version; they're more harder, and will give much better penetration than the standard-velocity, slow poke, softer lead target loads. Acebow
Effective .38 caliber for Self Defense - S&W 642
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I use Oregon Laser Cast Silver bullets. If silver bullets are good enough for the Lone Ranger they are good enough for me. Larry
Babalooie
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No one mentioned Federal Hydra-Shok ammo. Is there something wrong with it?
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The two loads I use in a 2" Chief's are 158 grain Buffalo Bore LSWCHP-GC +P and the Speer 135 grain +P Short Barrel Gold Dot.
While the Heavy BB bullet has much more foot pounds of energy and a much faster muzzle velocity, I've been gaining quite a bit of respect from the Speer GD lately. The almost perfect expansion and consistent performance is hard to deny and the recoil is quite a bit more mild than the BB which will definitely make follow up shots faster.
Anybody who finds the recoil from the BB load objectionable or slowing them down on follow-up shots would be well served using the Speer 135 grain short barrel GD. IMHO they are both great loads and are better than 95% of all other .38 Special offerings shot from 2" barrels.
The velocities and performance of the old standard FBI loadings from the "big three" have been watered down and IMHO no longer perform reliably. When they were loaded to their full potential they did perform well, but the lots I've tested lately are nothing less than DISMAL and would no longer load the into my Chief's for SD/HD.
While the Heavy BB bullet has much more foot pounds of energy and a much faster muzzle velocity, I've been gaining quite a bit of respect from the Speer GD lately. The almost perfect expansion and consistent performance is hard to deny and the recoil is quite a bit more mild than the BB which will definitely make follow up shots faster.
Anybody who finds the recoil from the BB load objectionable or slowing them down on follow-up shots would be well served using the Speer 135 grain short barrel GD. IMHO they are both great loads and are better than 95% of all other .38 Special offerings shot from 2" barrels.
The velocities and performance of the old standard FBI loadings from the "big three" have been watered down and IMHO no longer perform reliably. When they were loaded to their full potential they did perform well, but the lots I've tested lately are nothing less than DISMAL and would no longer load the into my Chief's for SD/HD.
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Pointblank2U
US Veteran
An often overlooked load that does very well in tests in the old Remington 125 grain +P Golden Saber. Check some of the tests on YouTube and you will find nearly universal results. It is a hot load though and I put Hogue Tamer grips on my 642 and 442. The bullet shape also lends itself to faster reloading than the rather blunt-nosed Gold Dot.
Now that's funny. The problem is ADEQUATE penetration.
Funny is suggesting a cheap plinker's load for self-defense.
How wide is an average man from chest to back? How deep are heart and lungs from the front of chest? 10"-16"-20"? Questions to think about in the real world. Be Safe,
vipermd;
test also take in the possibility of striking the BG's arms and
bad angles that are not frontal shots, which call for the 12-18" penetration in the FBI tests.
test also take in the possibility of striking the BG's arms and
bad angles that are not frontal shots, which call for the 12-18" penetration in the FBI tests.
The 12"-18" penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin stipulated by FBI tests accounts for obstacles a bullet might have to overcome in different scenarios; a round that, say, is meant for a clean shot into a target's center mass, but due to happenstance first clips through a leather jacket sleeve, fractures the tip of the elbow bone, and only then enters center mass still needs enough terminal performance to penetrate to an organ or artery.
The gelatin approximates the density of the various types of tissue in a human body combined; the required depth is to assure performance whether the hit is ideal or less than.
It isn't meant to indicate that there's 18" from the surface of a man's chest to his heart...
So first, Sgammo is awesome. I've ordered from them several times (it's where I get my gold dot ammo) and they are always on top of it. Buying to shipment time is sometimes a little slow, but they keep their prices low by having a small operation.
Second, 135 grain GD is the same round as the short barrel 135 grain, just a different package. It is the same stuff issued to several agencies for their weapons or backups.
Third, I use the 125 grain because the testing I have seen, and the informal I have done, are darn near identical between the two loads, and the 125 grain is much easier to get. Plus, all of my 38 specials love the round and shoot it well.
Fourth, badge130 is right on the money. The 125 grain Golden saber is highly underrated. My own informal unscientific tests are good, this guy is a little more scientific https://youtu.be/nRe6BzIqu6U
The FBI tests are great, but they are not the end all. As far as I know there is NO 38 special load that passes the test. I keep a 38 special at my bedside most nights, and have seen what the round will do to flesh. It's not infallible by any means, but no round is, and it's far easier to shoot than a serbu shorty with slugs.
Just my $0.02
Second, 135 grain GD is the same round as the short barrel 135 grain, just a different package. It is the same stuff issued to several agencies for their weapons or backups.
Third, I use the 125 grain because the testing I have seen, and the informal I have done, are darn near identical between the two loads, and the 125 grain is much easier to get. Plus, all of my 38 specials love the round and shoot it well.
Fourth, badge130 is right on the money. The 125 grain Golden saber is highly underrated. My own informal unscientific tests are good, this guy is a little more scientific https://youtu.be/nRe6BzIqu6U
The FBI tests are great, but they are not the end all. As far as I know there is NO 38 special load that passes the test. I keep a 38 special at my bedside most nights, and have seen what the round will do to flesh. It's not infallible by any means, but no round is, and it's far easier to shoot than a serbu shorty with slugs.
Just my $0.02
The 38 special is a marginal defensive cartridge, especially out of the short barreled 642. Loading some super wizz bang bullet isn't going to change that. In fact, it will hurt it. The expanding bullet will further reduce the already inadequate penetration. You can spend 4X dollars for wizz bang; the mfg appreciate it.
"Hollow point bullets in a 38 spc is a waste of money." You can look it up.
"Hollow point bullets in a 38 spc is a waste of money." You can look it up.
I understand the protocol and just wanted people to think about how much penetration would be required to reach heart and lungs. From the sternum to the heart is only about 2", lung is less. I am not questioning the fact of being ready for all options, just that a a CCI Gold Dot that enters 12" expanded is quite a remarkable load, compared to a standard velocity round nose lead bullet. Yes I have seen the large, intoxicated, angry, male that took 2 bullets to abdomen ( required resection of bowel), 1 to upper right chest( pneumothorax ) and one each to arm and leg opposite sides of the body. The round was fired from a 2" SW 36, 158 gr lead round nose standard velocity, yes he lived, he also nearly beat the shooter to death with a chair leg from a smashed wooden chair. Leg,arm, chest wounds all exited. Be Safe,
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hornady critical defence ftx 110 grain penetrates heavy clothing and has a more consistent expansion. 158 grain could go thru bad guy and hit person behind.
M E Morrison
Member
I have read the same thing, and I'm glad I stocked up on the Remingtons a couple of years ago before the change.
rmcnelly
Member
Thanks for posting this! I just ordered some.
And by all means, spend less on FMJ ball -- the bad guy will appreciate it.
All service handgun calibers can be described as marginal for defensive use. But significant improvements over the last twenty years in bullet design and powder blends have radically changed the equation for hollow point effectiveness; tests bear this out.
From the original FBI load to Nyclads to Speer GD SB, Cor Bon DPX and Buffalo Bore, for quite some time penetration and expansion have been achievable in .38 Special, including from snubbies.
Fine if you're not interested in the trade-offs of a .38 hollow point -- I'm not interested in the chance of overpenetration and lousy wound channel of FMJ -- but it's absurd to say hollow point .38 Special is a a waste of money when evidence to the contrary is abundant.
M E Morrison
Member
Sgt Neutron
Member
The Buffalo Bore 158 gr. SWCHP+P w/ Gas Check is a formidable load. I would suggest shooting a box first to see if you like it. The recoil is very heavy out of an Airweight (as mentioned above).
M E Morrison
Member
But that ASSUMES you will have a perfect frontal shot, with no obstacles (such as arms) or heavy clothing to interfere. I'm not that confident of a perfect world.
I have read the same thing, and I'm glad I stocked up on the Remingtons a couple of years ago before the change.
Yup, me too. I've actually started carrying Speer GDSB to conserve my very finite supply of the old "Express" loads, as I do "rotate" my carry ammo periodically.
I'd have zero reservations using their new HTP LHP in barrels 3" or longer, however.
See post 43- I agree not a perfect world, but the heart/lung/great vessels are not buried under 8-10 inches of bone and muscle. I do not disagree with the FBI protocol, I just do not accept it as the Holy Grail in "stopping Power". As stated before all handguns are a compromise. Be Safe,But that ASSUMES you will have a perfect frontal shot, with no obstacles (such as arms) or heavy clothing to interfere. I'm not that confident of a perfect world.
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Everyone has an opinion. Here are my three favorites:
1. FBI Load
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel
3. Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman
1. FBI Load
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel
3. Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman
Tests. That would be where you shoot people and see how they react.
"Powder blends." Right. Bullets still come out of the barrel at about the same speed.
The only thing that has changed with hollow points is more reliable expansion. I.e., they are now guaranteed not to penetrate.
You recommend, among others, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain. 860 fps. No "special blend of powders" is required for that.
Speer says:
"Speer® Gold Dot® Ammunition continues dominating the law enforcement community. Its proven reliability for tough jobs has made it the #1 duty ammunition on the market today. To put it simply—it's the best. We're reintroducing this fine ammunition in three user-friendly categories: Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel® Personal Protection and Speer Gold Dot Handgun Hunting."
Reliable. #1. The best.
Marketing stuff.
They don't guarantee it will stop an assailant. They don't even say it will stop an assailant.
The "defense" ammunition industry gets away with no performance requirements whatsoever. They say it is for "defense," and provide no criteria as to what it will accomplish when used for defense. Declaring "more reliable expansion" is taken as performance - with the industry's encouragement. Performance is stopping assailants. Not bullet magic tricks.
The Remington load I recommend is easy to shoot. Follow up shots will be no problem. You will still have skin on your fingers after shooting it.
BTW, Evan Marshall said, "Interestingly enough, there was often little correlation between the expansion of hollow points and the final result."
Deadmeat2 said, "A hollow point won't hurt a .45."
I say use hollow points in your rifles. Use bullets with as much meplat as possible in handguns.
My favorite 38 special self defense load is a hardcast 148 gr double ended wadcutter over 5.1 grains of Unique.
IN MY K-FRAMES. It takes the skin off my fingers in the 642.
You guys are doing people no favors recommending hot loads for the 642. It is not a suitable platform for hot loads.
IN MY K-FRAMES. It takes the skin off my fingers in the 642.
You guys are doing people no favors recommending hot loads for the 642. It is not a suitable platform for hot loads.
Federal Nyclad 125 grain +p- if you can find it. Bullet slightly harder than standard velocity version for deeper penetration, velocity aided by nylon coating, great expansion, proven results, easily manageable felt recoil for ease of follow-up shots. Out of print like all Nyclad, however some guy (not me) seems to have a stash of it to sell on GB.
I have shot my 442 with the 135 +p gold dot, and 125 grain version, hundreds of them. I've even tried it out competing against coworkers with full size service guns, and I still have all of the skin on my hands.
The 135 +p was designed by Speer for small revolvers, at the request of NYPD and some other agencies for their small revolvers.
If anything we are doing people some rather large favors by recommending a load that is specifically tailored to their firearm.
Every load I've recommended in this thread I have bought, shot, toyed around with and have found it to do what I need it to do.
How many companies do you see selling double-ended wadcutters for their premier self defense round in .38 special???
STORMINORMAN
Member
Ah, the old (version II. / alternative?) "cop-killer bullets"...
Remember the "TEFLON cop-killers!" & "Black Talon cop-killers!" ???? NYCLADS were once included in this demented rave, as I recall.
Interestingly I still have a couple boxes of these older NYCLADS from way, way back... Since all my snubbies are K-frames these have usually been the easy-to-handle & control carry load for a couple decades. Can't remember if they really feel any different in a Model 15 2" vs. Model 19 2 1/2" vs. Model 66 4'.
Since I've yet to acquire a J-frame (of any persuasion?) I can't speak to their use there, but it makes sense that what is sauce for the goose is... Goin' to work jus' fine!
Cheers!
Remember the "TEFLON cop-killers!" & "Black Talon cop-killers!" ???? NYCLADS were once included in this demented rave, as I recall.
Interestingly I still have a couple boxes of these older NYCLADS from way, way back... Since all my snubbies are K-frames these have usually been the easy-to-handle & control carry load for a couple decades. Can't remember if they really feel any different in a Model 15 2" vs. Model 19 2 1/2" vs. Model 66 4'.
Since I've yet to acquire a J-frame (of any persuasion?) I can't speak to their use there, but it makes sense that what is sauce for the goose is... Goin' to work jus' fine!
Cheers!
LIncoln, I'm a retired firearms examiner and currently do FBI protocol ballistic shoots for a major manufacturer. I have shot "jello" with just about every handgun caliber and bullet/load type in production today. There are tons of very good performing load/bullet combos available, some designed especially for the short barreled revolvers. Surprisingly enough the load my wife carries in her two inch is a factory 148 grain wadcutter. It comes out of her gun at about 690 FPS, she shoots it well and consistantly gets 16 inches of penetration in bare jello and 14-15 through summer clothing(two layers of cotton T-shirt material) I have witnessed two autopsies in my 30 year carreer on bad guys, shot with this load and it's amazing how much damage/hemorrhage is caused by this load with bullets being recovered just under the skin opposite the entry wound. I'm not trying to tell you what to carry, but from experience I recommend a heavy bullet with a large meplat and don't go overboard on the velocity. Penetration (and marksmanship) is the key mechanism and bullet weight and design are the dictating factors in penetration. Muzzle blast and recoil are detriments to good marksmanship.
My 2 cents worth on a very opinionated subject
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